Orkut debate - Morrigan x Danish

Please see my other blogs:

http://ayalah.blogspot.com

http://morrigandunn.blogspot.com

http://elelyl.blogspot.com



In Orkut we had several debates with Muslims and others, and now I will post a few for your perusal.

Enjoy it ;)

Morrigan

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DEBATE BETWEEN MORRIGAN (Pagan) AND DANISH (Muslim)

Morrigan

Danish,

You claimed that Islam is a peaceful and practical religion, but I am here to prove you wrong.

So, first of all I ask you to describe here what you find PEACEFUL and PRACTICAL about Islam. And then, I want you to describe WHY Islam is a RELIGION.

I claim that Islam is a VIOLENT and UNPRACTICAL CULT. Why do I say cult? Because religion comes from the word: RELIGARE. (Latin for Re-bind). The act of re-bind one consciousness with the DIVINE forces.

I claim Islam does not teach you how to rebind with these divine forces, and is therefore a cult, invented by a man who wanted to control people, and make WOMEN submit to MEN's will.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You are now required to back up your claims before I demolish them.

Remember the rules:

1. NO personal attacks.

2. NO deletion of posts.

3. DEBATE instead of COPY and paste. (Copy and paste can be used for reference ONLY).

Danish http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=15314979830090520186

...


you want me to make the descriptions ??? Puhleez

you start off. I'll just reply. Shuck another 'complain clarify' thread

how boring.

Morrigan

Danish,

Can you READ? I hope so. So read my post again.
I want you to BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.
So, show me here SOMETHING (Anything) that can prove without a doubt that your claims are remotely valid.

Danish

Morrigan,

dont bore me yaar. After all your hype all you have to say is ask my opinion on something.

islam is peaceful cause it gives me a lot of peace
it is practical cause i find all my answers in it


now you tell me...... How old are you?

Morrigan,

dont bore me yaar. After all your hype all you have to say is ask my opinion on something.

I asked you your opinion above. Stop stalling the debate. Just READ what I post and REPLY. I have no time to waste on people who troll. You accepted my challenge, did you not? So, ABIDE BY IT. Stop running.

islam is peaceful cause it gives me a lot of peace
it is practical cause i find all my answers in it

Is this ALL you got to support your case? I am quite disappointed as I thought you had at least some knowledge of what you were talking about. I see that you don't.

Ok, let's make this easier for you. Let's debate on ISLAMIC LAWS, shall we?
You had a lot to say in that topic, so let's see if you will be as "clever and chatty" here with me, when you have to obtain evidence to support such absurd claims.

now you tell me...... How old are you?

My age is not relevant. Answer the questions.

Morrigan

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=43245114&tid=2597216616404425418

Here is the topic on Islamic laws that you posted.
It seems to me that you are DEFENDING Islamic laws.
May I ask what laws are these? Are you referring to Shariah?

Danish

Choppin of hands and floggin for adultery is based on quran
other rules on ijma (consultation)

together they make up shariah.


you know, yopu really talk a lot. Too much sound no substance.



lemme take this ahead. Why do you think islam is not a way of life thats good. Do you see any scientific flaws in the quran? Anything at all which is illogical in the quran?

would you just keepp scraping or is their anything substancial you have to say. Dont bore us, we've had enough of you.


and, i wanna know your age and religion. I dont wanna waste my time on a kid

Danish

And on one more thin.... Dont bring me hadeeths cause if i say fake/weak hadeeth you'll make a fuss

stick to the quran. I know about the quran only.

i hope, instead of wasting more time, you would now ask somethin

Danish

Oh its a she....???

oohhh..... Ok? Such an agressive girl....my my....i am in for somethin :)

Morrigan

Ohh he has decided to return! Good!

Choppin of hands and floggin for adultery is based on quran
other rules on ijma (consultation)

together they make up shariah.

Ok. I know the Quranic punishments. I want to know if you meant what you said in that topic. So I will ask you again: Are you DEFENDING / Justifying them or not?

you know, yopu really talk a lot. Too much sound no substance.

And you seem to be afraid of a pure straight debate, and keep stalling the process by making ridiculous comments, such as asking my age or religion.
Stick to the TOPIC. Questions and answers about ISLAM. Stop being personal or I will ask the moderators to warn you. This is not what we agreed.

lemme take this ahead. Why do you think islam is not a way of life thats good.

* It undermines women
* It is unfair
* It is discriminative
* It is oppressive
* It interferes in people's PERSONAL lives
* It is fake
* It is contradictory/ambiguous
* It breaches every single human rights policy
* It is immoral
* It encourages the development of SIN into people's hearts

Do you see any scientific flaws in the quran? Anything at all which is illogical in the quran?

Yes, plenty of things. Would you like me to list them?

Morrigan

would you just keepp scraping or is their anything substancial you have to say. Dont bore us, we've had enough of you.

WE, who? Who had enough of me? You?
Anyway, please stop deviating the topic. DEBATE.

and, i wanna know your age and religion. I dont wanna waste my time on a kid

I am older than you and I have no religion. This is all you need to know.
My personal details do not concern you. We are debating on an issue, not on my person.

And on one more thin.... Dont bring me hadeeths cause if i say fake/weak hadeeth you'll make a fuss

Do you believe in the Hadiths? If so, which ones?


stick to the quran. I know about the quran only.

Ok, so you know Quran and NOT Hadiths, right? This means you don't know Islam. So what is the point in debating with someone who lies?

Ps. I am a WOMAN. Remember that.

I am going offline for today. I will return tomorrow to continue.

Danish

Most of the members put together, including me, would not know half as much (about religions and world cultures) as Morrigon alone does.

Thats a relief. ok so i am deleting posts by other members. let this be a one on one

bring it on honey

lemme take this ahead. Why do you think islam is not a way of life thats good.

* It undermines women
* It is unfair
* It is discriminative
* It is oppressive
* It interferes in people's PERSONAL lives
* It is fake
* It is contradictory/ambiguous
* It breaches every single human rights policy
* It is immoral
* It encourages the development of SIN into people's hearts

Do you see any scientific flaws in the quran? Anything at all which is illogical in the quran?

Yes, plenty of things. Would you like me to list them?

arey why are you asking me again and again. The only posts you have made till now reflect your claim that you know somethin. Start it off already.


if you think islam is oppressive, start with How it is oppressive, bring me verses. is this the first time you are debating?

Sceintific flaws.... do you need my permission to list them, bring it on.

Start it off already. i'll be back soon.

and please....this time.... start with a topic

start with you claim that Islam encourages the development of SIN into people's hearts

what made you say that?

Danish

comeon baby, i cant wait to change you beliefs about islam.

if you are what these people say you are, you'll start loving islam by the time we are through. hope you are free all this weekend cause i am freeing myself for you

Morrigan

DANISH:

arey why are you asking me again and again.

Because you have not replied again and again.

The only posts you have made till now reflect your claim that you know somethin. Start it off already.

No. I gave YOU a CHANCE to start DEFENDING your claims, but since you have been UNABLE to do so, and used your personal opinion as defense so far, I can confidently say that you are not even qualified to debate with me. I have seen younger boys who at least gave me a bit of a decent debate. (If you don't believe me I will show you in my blog, as I saved our Orkut debate over there.)

if you think islam is oppressive, start with How it is oppressive, bring me verses. is this the first time you are debating?

No it is not my first time, but It seems it is YOUR first time debating with someone more knowledgeable than yourself, hence the childish comments.

Sceintific flaws.... do you need my permission to list them, bring it on.

Quranic unscientific claims (Which are false)

*Mountains provide stability to earth
*Moon has light of its own.
*The claim that Quran talks about expanding universe.
*The claim that Quran mentions the big bang theory.
* The claim of any and every scientific miracle in the Quran
* The claim that Cumin is the cure for all diseases
* The claim that Bees EAT fruits
* The claim that Muhammad was a prophet
* The claim that sperm comes from the "viscera and ribs"

In fact, I am only listing a few. Even demolishing ONE of them proves that Quran is not a book of G-d and was written by a stupid man.

start with you claim that Islam encourages the development of SIN into people's hearts

List of sins:

* 3.1 Lust (Latin, luxuria)
* 3.2 Gluttony (Latin, gula)
* 3.3 Greed (Latin, avaritia)
* 3.4 Sloth (Latin, acedia)
* 3.5 Wrath (Latin, ira)
* 3.6 Envy (Latin, invidia)
* 3.7 Pride (Latin, superbia)

Danish

In Pakistan blasphemy directed against either the tenets of the Qur'an or the Prophet Mohammed is punishable by either life imprisonment or death. Apostasy, the rejection of one's old religion, is also criminalized in a number of countries, notably Afghanistan with Abdul Rahman being the first to face the death penalty for converting to Christianity. it is shameful or not according to Quran???

the punishment for apostacy as per the Quran

3:86 How shall Allah Guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but Allah guides not a people unjust

3:90 But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray


9:66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin.

So there is no punishment for apostacy in this world. Allah will punish these people as he wants. Muslims arent asked to punish them

Same for blasphemy

13:32 mocked were (many) apostles before thee: but I granted respite to the unbelievers, and finally I punished them: Then how (terrible) was my requital!

Danish

List of sins:

* 3.1 Lust (Latin, luxuria)
* 3.2 Gluttony (Latin, gula)
* 3.3 Greed (Latin, avaritia)
* 3.4 Sloth (Latin, acedia)
* 3.5 Wrath (Latin, ira)
* 3.6 Envy (Latin, invidia)
* 3.7 Pride (Latin, superbia)

again a list

arey give me verses etc. what kinda lister are you?

Morrigan

I will show you how Islam encourages EACH of these sins.

Jealousy (Envy) & Lust

The Quran's main subject is SEX and PUNISHMENTS. Islam is a cult that preaches polygamy. Where a MAN is allowed to have sexual relationships with more than one woman, while a woman is only allowed to have sexual relationships with her husband.

First of all, this is DISCRIMINATORY, and a breach of human rights.
Secondly, this encourages LUST (for men), and wrath and envy for WOMEN.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out human behaviour, since it is absolutely NORMAL and NATURAL that if a man who has a partner and decides to sleep with another woman, it will cause tremendous ANGER and JEALOUSY to his partner. And also to the other partner he is sleeping with. Not only that, but it will cause fights at home, disharmony and possible marriage break up.

This proves Islam has disgraced the sanctity of marriage, by allowing MEN to sexually indulge themselves in their LUST.

It is an IMMORAL act. For a man who has a wife, and decides to sleep (Marry even) another, as he is committing first of all, ADULTERY, then POLYGAMY.
Also this action is a deliberate act to HURT his partner.

It seems to me that Muslim MEN do not understand that women get hurt by this behaviour, but they insist in doing so and claiming RELIGIOUS IMMUNITY.
And it seems to me that the Muslim women are extremely STUPID to allow their men to do so, or even not to fight.

Danish

Quranic unscientific claims (Which are false)

*Mountains provide stability to earth

We were deabting that last in the Quran is not the word of God thread

*Moon has light of its own.

Far from the truth. The Quran amazingly makes a difference between the light of the sun and that of the moon.

25:61 Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a moon giving light

71:16 "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

*The claim that Quran talks about expanding universe.

51:47 AND IT IS We who have built the universe [30] with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it

*The claim that Quran mentions the big bang theory.

21:30 ARE, THEN, they who are bent on denying the truth not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity, which We then parted asunder? – [38] and [that] We made out of water every living thing? Will they not, then, [begin to] believe?

* The claim that Cumin is the cure for all diseases

The what??

* The claim that Bees EAT fruits

need to check this up

* The claim that Muhammad was a prophet

hahahaha. you realyl are funny. Start by disproving this, it would be entertaining

* The claim that sperm comes from the "viscera and ribs"

need to check this up

Morrigan

Danish:

I suggest you do not play stupid with me, as your defeat may be worse this way.
Earlier on you CLAIMED that if someone proved FLAWS and MISTAKES in the Quran/Islam, you would leave it. Obviously you have LIED. But I will show it to you anyway, because I want to make something clear here:

When you are following a religion that is FALSE, and someone tells you that it is false, and proves it to you, you no longer have an excuse to follow it. However, if you still decide to follow it, you will be exactly like the dog that returns to his own vomit.

You see, the dog KNOWS it is his vomit, and yet, he goes back and eats it. This is precisely how I see Muslims who have been told the truth, but decide to remain Muslims. All dogs that return to their vomit.

I thought this debate was between ME and YOU, but I see other people replying here, so you may decide if you wish to take on ALL of us, or ME alone. I let you have this simple choice, because I know you shall fail, and while I cannot guarantee other people to be MERCIFUL to you, I can guarantee I shall be.

The SINS that Islam encourages into people's hearts are:

* WRATH
* ENVY
* PRIDE
* GREED
* LUST

Sloth and gluttony are the only outsiders.

Muslims are constantly WRATHFUL, and ENVIOUS of other people.
They are PROUD of being dogs that return to their vomit. Proud of belonging to a fake cult. Misled to the max.
They are GREEDY for LAND, MEN and WOMEN
They are LUSTFUL for WOMEN and MEN.

** I shall continue this later as I am going to work now**

I will try to reply from there if I am not too busy.

Danish

..


Islam is a cult that preaches polygamy.


Islam is a religion that restricts polygamy and encourages monogamy. A christian or hindu can marry as many women as they want but Islam restricts this number to 4. this has also been discussed deeply here.

Muslims are encouraged to have one wife.


4:3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.


24:32 Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female




...


First of all, this is DISCRIMINATORY, and a breach of human rights.
Secondly, this encourages LUST (for men), and wrath and envy for WOMEN.



Till about 150 years ago, it was a norm world over where everyone except muslims married 9 or 10 wives. Even now in India, Hindus are more polygamous than muslims


...



It seems to me that Muslim MEN do not understand that women get hurt by this behaviour, but they insist in doing so and claiming RELIGIOUS IMMUNITY.




I cant recall, but there is a verse in the Quran that says that if you cannot do justice between your wives then marry only one.

Also, according to some scholars, permission from the first wife is required to marry the second

Danish

..


I thought this debate was between ME and YOU, but I see other people replying here, so you may decide if you wish to take on ALL of us, or ME alone




you, what are you doing doing anyway. i'd rather take all of them cause you are anyway negligible.

would you stop giving your theory and start showing me flaws. even its raining does a better job at debating.

you are just showing off your past and that it. All wind no rain.

seriously, either start off with showing me defective verses or get lost. others are doing a better job

Danish

..


The SINS that Islam encourages into people's hearts are:

* WRATH
* ENVY
* PRIDE
* GREED
* LUST





another list


* WRATH - how?
* ENVY - how?
* PRIDE - how?
* GREED - how?
* LUST - how?




honestly doll, you bring one more list and i would turn thread into nothing but comedy. stop boring me. after all those claims people have made about you i was looking for something besides your list.


we are on 40th post already and i've only had 2 meaningful posts from you.

Morrigan

DANISH:

Islam is a religion that restricts polygamy and encourages monogamy.

This is a LIE, and you know it. There is no point in trying Taqiyya on me, my friend.

Even your MUSLIM BROTHERS agree with me:
http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=19201491&tid=2547322717943388587&kw=If+ye+fear+that+ye+shall+not+be+able+to+deal

Of course that I could easily debunk the whole sura 4:3...

4:3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four;...

If you fear you cannot deal justly with the ORPHANS????? Then you may marry WOMEN? Unless I am missing something my dear, why is this verse mentioning ORPHANS?? And as everyone can see, it explicitly states marry TWO, THREE or FOUR!

This is the epitome of immorality!

There is no need to paste the remaining part of the surah because in Surah Al-Nisa 129 it says:

You are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire but turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air)

So my friend, your Quran is a CONTADICTORY book. One minute it tells you that you can marry 2,3 or 4, and the NEXT it tells you the COMPLETE OPPOSITE, that you can NEVER be fair and Just between women, EVEN IF IT'S YOUR ARDENT DESIRE.

So Islam is a bunch of lies as you can see. The book is highly AMBIGUOUS and a divine book should be CLEAR as a crystal and not ambiguous.

Muslims are encouraged to have one wife.

They should not be ENCOURAGED. They should be FORBIDDEN to have more than one wife. Any CULT/RELIGION that allows men to fuck around, is IMMORAL and should be ridiculed.

If men can have more women, then WOMEN can also have more men in their bed, whether you like it or not, whether Islam allows it or not. Islam is not a religion. It's a CULT.

Morrigan

Danish:

Till about 150 years ago, it was a norm world over where everyone except muslims married 9 or 10 wives. Even now in India, Hindus are more polygamous than muslims

Please PROVE it. Show me evidence and timeline in HISTORY. Unfortunately for you I acnnot take your OPINIONS as facts. Provide evidence for your claims, or they shall be disregarded, jsut like this one above.

I cant recall, but there is a verse in the Quran that says that if you cannot do justice between your wives then marry only one.

Yes, you posted it above. And I posted the Sura Al-Nisa which CONTRADICTS the Sura 4:3. Now what will you do? Blame your Allah for lying, misguiding or confusing you?

Also, according to some scholars, permission from the first wife is required to marry the second

LOL!! And what kind of woman would give permission to her beloved to marry another? Only an idiot, or a woman who is abused, oppressed and lack self confidence!

The whole issue is worse than it sounds as it shows evidently that Allah (Your g-d) knows NOTHING about human behaviour or human feelings, although he seems to have many of them, such as PRIDE, WRATH, JEALOUSY, etc... That is quite interesting..

Anyway, even if you CLAIM that permission from the first wife must be granted, things do not happen this way, besides there is NO Quranic evidence to prove this claim. If you claim the Quran tells you that, PROVE IT. Show me the Surah that says: PERMISSION from the FIRST wife is necessary. SHOW ME.

you, what are you doing doing anyway. i'd rather take all of them cause you are anyway negligible.

Is this why you FAILED to be coherent and reply to me logically? hahah!!!

Danish, everyone can see you are losing..

Morrigan

Danish:


another list


* WRATH - how?
* ENVY - how?
* PRIDE - how?
* GREED - how?
* LUST - how?

I explained above. Go back and READ IT.

Morrigan

Danish:

Two things:

1. You said if we can prove ANY falacy in the Quran, you will leave Islam.
Well, I pointed out loads already. So have other people here. Now we are waiting for you to LEAVE ISLAM as you said. (Unless you are a liar..)


2. I am still waiting for you to clarify if you DEFEND or CONDEMN the SHARIAH law.

Danish

..

This is a LIE, and you know it. There is no point in trying Taqiyya on me, my friend

Ofcourse its not, and you know it. There is no point in trying Taqiyya on me, my friend

...



4:2 Hence, render unto the orphans their posses­sions, and do not substitute bad things [of your own] for the good things [that belong to them], and do not consume their possessions together with your own: [2] this, verily, is a great crime.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4:3 And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you [3] - [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. [4] This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4:4 And give unto women their marriage portions in the spirit of a gift; [5] but if they, of their own accord, give up unto you aught thereof, then enjoy it with pleasure and good cheer.



that should be selfexplanatory

Danish

..



You are to be fair to your wives in treatment. Each gets the same amount as domestic spend, each gets to spend the same amount of time with you.

The prophet was very particular about this. But he had more love for some of his wives about which he was very concerned since the Quran says you have to be fair to them. Thats when the verse was revealed.

You must be fair to them with your resources, but if you heart is more inclined towards some, then it is not a sin





128. If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

129. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self- restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

130. But if they disagree (and must part), Allah will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty: for Allah is He that careth for all and is Wise.

Morrigan

Danish - More lies from the Quran for you

The LIES about having no compulsion in religion.

The Quran Al Baqarah 2:256

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

You read it, right? Let there be NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION. Meaning: People should be able to follow WHATEVER they want.

But then ... we see this DISGRACE:

Sura At-touba 9: 29

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

So, I have again PROVEN that the Quran is CONTRADICTORY, and lies to people.

If there is to be NO COMPULSION in religion, why is this sick Surah there?
Why is it asked from believers to FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH????

Answer me, Danish boy!

Danish

..

They should not be ENCOURAGED. They should be FORBIDDEN to have more than one wife. Any CULT/RELIGION that allows men to fuck around, is IMMORAL and should be ridiculed


Well thats the only religion that enourages monogamy, so you can throw the remaining in a rubbish can.

It cannot be forbidden for reasons detailed in the polygamy thread. reasons like war etc which cause a disproportionate gender ratio

Danish

the rest is repitition and your usual blabbering on the same thing.
anything else?

Danish

..

compulsion in religion


are you done with the polygamy thing? should we move on?

Morrigan

Danish:

Why are you scared to reply to me?
I said VERSES can be pasted as REFERENCE ONLY, and you are required to DEBATE.
Answer me: DO YOU CONDEMN OR DEFEND SHARIAH?

Secondly I asked you to explain Sura 4:3, in regards to the word ORPHANS. Why does it mention ORPHANS there if the surah has to do with MARRYING WOMEN?
THINK. Use your brain if you have one. I won't accept any copy paste shit unless you explain WHY you have pasted it and what you are trying to say.
I made that clear before, so don't waste my time!

4:3 And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you

that should be selfexplanatory

It's not. So EXPLAIN what the word orphans are doing there.

You are to be fair to your wives in treatment. Each gets the same amount as domestic spend, each gets to spend the same amount of time with you

Go back to Sura Al-Nisaa 129 that I already pasted before, so I will paste again for youto explain:

Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire but turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Do you understand boy?? You may CLAIM that you are to be fair to your wives in treatment, but Surah Al Nisaa 129 DEMOLISHES your claim, in fact the claim of Sura 4:3.

If you disagree, you have to prove your point. My point is proven. Islam is a LIE, and you will have to leave Islam now as you promised me. I showed you the FALACIES.


Let's see how much your word is worth..

Morrigan

The prophet was very particular about this. But he had more love for some of his wives about which he was very concerned since the Quran says you have to be fair to them. Thats when the verse was revealed.

Bullshit. Personal opinion. Taqiyya.


You must be fair to them with your resources, but if you heart is more inclined towards some, then it is not a sin

It IS a sin. You are CHEATING. It is ADULTERY. Marriage is sacred. The whole idea of marriage is about LOVE. A woman and a man who love one another. The moment you bring a THIRD person into this relationship, it becomes immoral and it is ADULTERY.

Adultery = The act of cheating on your partner.
Muhammad was an adulterer. He should have been flogged to death, as he committed this act over 20 times if not more.
He also had intercourse with prisoners of war (captives) and with his slaves (Including Mariah, who was NOT his wife).

You don't have a leg to stand on now!

Stop copying and pasting shit as I am not reading it. Use it only as REFERENCE to prove something. All you proved so far is your ignorance in Islam, your ignorance in Quran, your ignorance in Hadiths and your total lack of common sense.

Well thats the only religion that enourages monogamy, so you can throw the remaining in a rubbish can.

Bullshit. Taqiyya. How many religions do you know? NONE of course. So your CLAIM is unfounded.. personal opinion.

It cannot be forbidden for reasons detailed in the polygamy thread. reasons like war etc which cause a disproportionate gender ratio

Bullshit excreted from Zakir Naik's braindead cells.
Your excuses and justifications are irrational, therefore will not be taken into account.


are you done with the polygamy thing? should we move on?

Whats' to be done about it? Polygamy is a SIN, and in the WEST is a CRIME.
It causes people to SIN, therefore it is EVIL. If your g-d allows that, he is EVIL.

Danish

..

Why are you scared to reply to me?
I said VERSES can be pasted as REFERENCE ONLY, and you are required to DEBATE.
Answer me: DO YOU CONDEMN OR DEFEND SHARIAH?


ofcourse i defend it. the law of God is pefect.

What are you tryign to achieve with this boy and 'you are defeated' attitude. you think shouting it again and again would prove something. Dont try this shit with me, i invented mindgames


Secondly I asked you to explain Sura 4:3, in regards to the word ORPHANS. Why does it mention ORPHANS there if the surah has to do with MARRYING WOMEN?


A'ishah said, "A man was taking care of a female orphan and he married her, although he did not desire to marry her. That girl's money was mixed with his, and he was keeping her portion from her. Afterwards, this Ayah was revealed about his case;


Thank you for asking, i didnt know this either. Thought it was about taking care of your own kids that have been orphaned.

but it isnt. This is about girls who have been orphaned. If you want to take them in your care and you fear you would not be able to deal with them justly, then marry them, one, two, three or four

Morrigan

@ Danish

ofcourse i defend it. the law of God is pefect

I see.. so you BELIEVE Shariah is a law from G-d? Which G-d?
So you defend chopping limbs, stoning women and lashing people? Interesting... I am yet to find a more vicious, violent and disgraceful g-d than Allah, the pagan Moon G-d from the Pre-Islamic Arabs.

In fact I doubt that any loving parent would have wished such thing to his/her child, let alone a "most merciful, most loving" g-d.

Ok, so you agree with me that YOUR g-d (Allah) is NOT merciful or loving then?

What are you tryign to achieve with this boy and 'you are defeated' attitude. you think shouting it again and again would prove something. Dont try this shit with me, i invented mindgames

Well, if I can beat you in your own "mindgames" it means you are not that good at it my friend.

A'ishah said, "A man was taking care of a female orphan and he married her, although he did not desire to marry her. That girl's money was mixed with his, and he was keeping her portion from her. Afterwards, this Ayah was revealed about his case

Right.. so earlier you said you did NOT BELIEVE IN HADITHS, only QURAN. Now you are quoting a hadith without even giving me a reference and claiming it is the explanation of this verse. Right. I will accept your use of this hadith as the explanation for the surah IF you can give me the Hadith's reference.

Thank you for asking, i didnt know this either. Thought it was about taking care of your own kids that have been orphaned.

You are welcome. So according to your own explanation using Hadiths, a man is ONLY allowed POLYGAMY if he is to marry "ORPHANS", and not other women. Right? Otherwise it still has no meaning.

Danish

..


hadeeth on why the 'cant be fair to your wife' ayah was revealed


Imam Ahmad and the collectors of the Sunan recorded that `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah used to treat his wives equally and proclaim, "O Allah! This is my division in what I own, so do not blame me for what You own and I do not own (referring to his heart.) This was the wording that Abu Dawud collected, and its chain of narrators is Sahih.


seeya tomorrow now

Morrigan

but it isnt. This is about girls who have been orphaned. If you want to take them in your care and you fear you would not be able to deal with them justly, then marry them, one, two, three or four

Ok, so as I said, a man is ONLY allowed to marry these girls IF they are orphans. Although it gives me the creep to think of an older man marrying CHILDREN who have been orphaned, just to care for them, when he is perfectly able to care for them without having to marry them or have sexual intercourse with them.

This explanation you gave me, is actually WORSE than pure polygamy, for it is understood that the man who is marrying these orphaned girls, is doing so in order to take over THEIR MONEY, or the money they inheritted from their dead parents.
Otherwise, as I said, he doesn't need to marry them, he can ADOPT them. By adopting them he will NOT be able to use their money, so the orphans will keep their money safe.

(Danish has proven that Islam encourages men to be GOLD DIGGERS and marry orphaned children in order to take their money into his own possession). Tsk tsk tsk... disgraceful!!

Here you are my friend Danish... it's time to LEAVE ISLAM!

hey doll, trust me, you wont like it if i talk to you the way you are.
i know very well how to put a bitch in her cage but i aint very happy doin it.

Danish you have broken the rule. You are now INSULTING my person. (You just called me a bitch for no reason whatsoever), so now we have the evidence that Muslims cannot debate, but INSULT when cornered! LOL!! Priceless!

Danish boy, don't flatter yourself. It would take more than you to even intimidate me, so keep your insults for your family, who may appreciate them more.

so keep you victorious attitude to yourself unless you want some of it back.

Is my victory hurting you? Good! You said you would leave Islam if I proved falacies, and I have. Abide by your word. Or were you LYING??

Morrigan

Danish:

You got some weird presumptions about yourself and i wouldnt mind breakin them apart. ok. I aint her to spoil my mood so chill and let me be chilled.

My friend, you are free to do as you please. As I said, you can break everything apart if you have what it takes to do so. Remember, so far I am being extremely merciful towards you, but only because I want you to debate, and to think while you are at it.

I believe that if I allow you to think logically about what I am writing, you will leave Islam. All you have to do is comprehend what I say.

keep your fucking attitude to yourself

Losing your cool already? You know that if you cannot control your temper you canot control anything? The word that you keep inside is your slave, the one that comes out is your master. Are you a slave of your own temper?


Imam Ahmad and the collectors of the Sunan recorded that `A'ishah said, "The Messenger of Allah used to treat his wives equally and proclaim, "O Allah! This is my division in what I own, so do not blame me for what You own and I do not own (referring to his heart.) This was the wording that Abu Dawud collected, and its chain of narrators is Sahih.

Danish, do you believe in this Hadith? If so, what will you do if I paste another Hadith from Aisha, stating explicitly that Muhammad did not treat his wives equally, and that he was under the influence of black magic?



For the last time: DO YOU BELIEVE IN HADITHS OR NOT??

Stop wasting my time, saying you don't and then quoting them. You either DO or you DON'T. Choose!!!

Danish

gimme some time. some idiot has claimed a chargeback on all thosands of rupees transacted through my website which is really really frusturating me (as you can see from some earlier replies)

be back tomorrow.


is anyone living in chennai?

Morrigan

Ok. I will wait until tomorrow. Good luck recovering your Rupees.

Morrigan

Well Danish... you are still here debating, so address my points.
Stop giving us lame excuses about you being conned off a few Rupees.

Men who are real men, debate with honor. I am waiting.

Danish

Men who are real men, debate with honor

men who are real men, ................. oh leave it, you will start another women complain for this



you are so aggressive, i dont even enjoy debating with you. guys here are a lot better. GL, Athiest, Doctor Satyendra and others.... its nice to discuss things with them.

but anyway, i'll take it forward cause your questions are nice. tonight maybe. right now i am in a bad mood

Danish

..


So you defend chopping limbs, stoning women and lashing people?


Stoning women? thats a judaic law. you should be knowing this. the other two are islamic and you can see our discussion in the thread Islamic Laws



In fact I doubt that any loving parent would have wished such thing to his/her child, let alone a "most merciful, most loving" g-d.


A just king will do justice. He is the most loving and the most strict in punishment.

5:98 Know ye that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

Danish

..

so earlier you said you did NOT BELIEVE IN HADITHS, only QURAN. Now you are quoting a hadith without even giving me a reference and claiming it is the explanation of this verse. Right. I will accept your use of this hadith as the explanation for the surah IF you can give me the Hadith's reference.


i dont know much about hadeeth and how to know which ones are right and which are wrong. so i dont use them. i found this one in a tafsir book which explains why this verse was revealed

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12418




You are welcome. So according to your own explanation using Hadiths, a man is ONLY allowed POLYGAMY if he is to marry "ORPHANS", and not other women. Right


nope, the use of orphans over there is because of this background. a muslims man cannot marry more than four.

Otherwise, as I said, he doesn't need to marry them, he can ADOPT them. By adopting them he will NOT be able to use their money, so the orphans will keep their money safe.


Adoption is not there in islam. You can pay for a girls residence and living, like in an orphanage, but you cant start living with her.



(Danish has proven that Islam encourages men to be GOLD DIGGERS and marry orphaned children in order to take their money into his own possession). Tsk tsk tsk... disgraceful!!

Here you are my friend Danish... it's time to LEAVE ISLAM!


What kind of attitude is this? its no fun, its actually irritating talking to you.

Morrigan

Stoning women? thats a judaic law. you should be knowing this. the other two are islamic and you can see our discussion in the thread Islamic Laws

I know it is Judaic, and I ABHOR it. I don't respect it and I criticize it. Do you also criticize it or you defend this inhuman and barbaric attack?

A just king will do justice. He is the most loving and the most strict in punishment.

G-d is not a king. Neither are you. Neither are your mullahs. Justice does not mean BARBARITY. Strict punishment does not mean VIOLENT and BARBARIC.

When you resort to barbarity, it CEASES to be justice. It may be strict, but it is UNJUST if this is the case. And a g-d MUST be just, must be loving.
Chopping hands, stoning and lashing people are INHUMAN. They are not even considered strict, but ABUSE of power.

5:98 Know ye that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

Written by a madman. Allah has not held the whips. Allah has not thrown the stones. Allah has not chopped those people's hands.

You men do your EVIL in the name of ALLAH. He must be reserving a special place in his roasting oven for you lot!

Danish

..

I believe that if I allow you to think logically about what I am writing, you will leave Islam



do it with an attitude that makes talking fun and engaging. i aint here to win or loose, we are discussing your points and mine.

and i dont need to tell you if and when i leave Islam and neither do you need to tell me if and when you convert to Islam, we both have brains to decide between the truth and falsehood.

What we are doing here and all we can do, is try to show each other why we think what is true and what is false.

Danish

..


I know it is Judaic, and I ABHOR it. I don't respect it and I criticize it. Do you also criticize it or you defend this inhuman and barbaric attack?

Must i have an opinion. it has nothing to do with islam. why should i bother with someone else's religion



G-d is not a king. Neither are you. Neither are your mullahs. Justice does not mean BARBARITY. Strict punishment does not mean VIOLENT and BARBARIC.


God is a king as per Islam. Justice most certainly doesnt mean being barbaric, how you define that word however, can be debated. The punishments in hell might sound barbaric to you, but that is how Allah punishes who you rebel against him despite the blessing he filled their life with.




5:98 Know ye that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

Written by a madman. Allah has not held the whips. Allah has not thrown the stones. Allah has not chopped those people's hands.



Please be careful with your words. i would not debate with someone using madman to describe my prophet. To me, my prophet is as dear as my father, so when you talk about him, dont say things you would not want to say about my father. please


Going now, seeya later

Morrigan

Danish:

i dont know much about hadeeth and how to know which ones are right and which are wrong. so i dont use them. i found this one in a tafsir book which explains why this verse was revealed

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12418

This is not what I asked you. I asked you if you BELIEVE in hadiths or not. If you don't, then it means you don't know shit about Islam.
If you do, then we can discuss Islam on the light of everything linked to it. Hadiths, Quran and Muhammad. Do you understand?

As for Hadiths being right or not, you won't be able to tell UNLESS you know Islamic History, which you don't. All of them are AUTHENTIC documents, written before you and I were born, so it is NOT up to you to choose which ones are right or not. You will know when you learn HISTORY of ISLAM.

nope, the use of orphans over there is because of this background. a muslims man cannot marry more than four.

Then the verse should NOT have mentioned orphans. The fact that it did, proves your comments WRONG. A man is ONLY allowed to marry orphans. END OF STORY. If you believe differently, show me a Surah that states so.

Adoption is not there in islam. You can pay for a girls residence and living, like in an orphanage, but you cant start living with her.

Hang on.. I don't understand this. You said that ADOPTION is not there in Islam. You mean that it is FORBIDDEN to adopt a child? So.. is it ok to COMMIT PEDOPHILIA with this child and MARRY HER??

What is this about man????

Didn't Muhammad adopt Zayd his ex-slave?? So was Muhammad going against the Quran then? You just shot yourself on your foot. LOL!!!

Unbelievable! Hear hear!! It's ok to rape a child and commit pedophilia by marrying the child, but not allowed to ADOPT her.

What a sick cult is this? Enlighten me!!!

Danish

..

Didn't Muhammad adopt Zayd his ex-slave?? So was Muhammad going against the Quran then?

he adopted him before the prophethood. The quran ruled that adopted sons are not your sons.


33:4 Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way.

..

i dont rely too much on hadeeths unless someone is there to tell me which ones are authentic.

...

the rest of it was crap so i aint answering. and you better tone down girl...i wont continue this with the tone you are using. calm down, this aint a win-lose battle.

Danish

..

What a sick cult is this? Enlighten me

your prejudice is an obstacle in this discussion

Morrigan

What kind of attitude is this? its no fun, its actually irritating talking to you.

Why? Because I make you see your mistakes?
Danish my dear, you have shot yourself on the foot. You have just said that ISLAM does not recognize ADOPTION, which in my view is the MOST HONOURABLE thing to do for an orphan child. Instead, Islam enforces CHILD MARRIAGE which to me is the same as PEDOPHILIA.

Are you now aware of how sick this looks to CIVILIZED people?

i dont need to tell you if and when i leave Islam and neither do you need to tell me if and when you convert to Islam, we both have brains to decide between the truth and falsehood.

You made a claim. You said that if ANYONE proved any fallacy in the Quran or Islam you would LEAVE IT, and claim that there are 1 million g-ds. So far you have not done so. Why? Can't you recognize when you make a mistake? Can't you be man enough to say that you were wrong? Or to admit that we have shown you the fallacies in your cult?

What we are doing here and all we can do, is try to show each other why we think what is true and what is false.

That's cool. So when will you admit that what I showed you is TRUE and what you claimed was FALSE? I am waiting...

Must i have an opinion. it has nothing to do with islam. why should i bother with someone else's religion

Danish, we are talking about ISLAMIC practices and SHARIAH law now.
The fact that it all started in Judaic times, does not justify its current occurrence in ISLAMIC countries. Understand?
You will not see ONE JEW doing this. In fact, you can look throughout history and you won't find any such case from 500 BCE onwards to be fair and honest.

Muslims however still live in the STONE AGE. Such punishments are not just or valid. They are made out of ANGER and WRATH.
And when you resort to these things you lose your humanity. People like that are no better than BEASTS.

This is why your opinion would help me understand your character.

Morrigan

Danish:

As I said. Islam is not a religion. It's a cult. It's not prejudice, it's the truth. I have absolutely no prejudice towards any cult or religion that preaches LOVE and MERCY. Islam preaches the OPPOSITE. It is a cult because it has NOTHING divine in it. And I already explained the difference between CULTS and RELIGIONS. But I can explain again if you wish.

God is a king as per Islam. Justice most certainly doesnt mean being barbaric, how you define that word however, can be debated. The punishments in hell might sound barbaric to you, but that is how Allah punishes who you rebel against him despite the blessing he filled their life with.

G-d is not a king. Not in Islam, nor anywhere else. It's just G-d. A force. Not a human, not an entity, not a deity. Anything that borders the barbaric is NOT justice at all. You need to learn about Justice in order to acknowledge that. There is NO HELL. Hell does not exist. Neither does PARADISE in heaven. You may disagree, but if so, you may also PROVE that they exist. And the proof must come from REAL THINGS, not books and scriptures.

People can write about anything, but I will ONLY accept evidence.

Besides, Allah did not fill anyone's lives with blessings. We were born as they were because MOTHER NATURE made us this way. There is no G-d. At least not the one you believe in. And you cannot argue with me on this because you cannot prove it.

Morrigan

Please be careful with your words. i would not debate with someone using madman to describe my prophet.

Your prophet means nothing to me. To me he was worse than a madman. If you cannot tolerate criticism towards a HISTORICAL figure, then you should not debate with me. Furthermore, it is you who must be careful with your words. You called me a BITCH. Remember???

To me, my prophet is as dear as my father, so when you talk about him, dont say things you would not want to say about my father. please

You undermined your father now. Shame on you! Your prophet may be dear to you, but he was EVIL to my people, evil to women, evil to dogs, and I have absolutely no respect at all for him. Deal with it. As long as I am not insulting YOU or YOUR FATHER, you cannot tell me to watch my words. Is that clear?

I am sorry if my words hurt you. But I cannot pretend to be a hypocrite just to please your ego and save your feelings from being hurt. Muhammad insulted my people. He MURDERED them at cold blood in an act of genocide. Whether you wish to accept it or not, is not relevant. This is recorded in HISTORY, and also in your Quran and the Hadiths.

You could NEVER in a million years deny his acts, for if you do I will be more than happy to prove you wrong yet again.

Danish

Debate abandoned due to provacative language.

Morrigan

Danish:

he adopted him before the prophethood. The quran ruled that adopted sons are not your sons.

Let me get this straight... so you say Muhammad adopted Zayd BEFORE prophethood, right? So what does that mean? Before Muhammad became a prophet he was a GOOD person, and after prophethood he became EVIL? Well, I could agree with that actually because I have seen what Islam has done to GOOD PEOPLE before they got stuck in this dead end cult. Osama Bin Laden, believe it or not, is one of them.

Before he met his so-called-spiritual leader, he was a GOOD person.

So, can you give me a LOGICAL reason as to why it would be forbidden for anyone to ADOPT a needy child and give him/her love, a home, food and education?
Why would you prefer to sleep with a minor, and produce children with her, instead of looking after her and her future???

Would that also apply to BOYS? So women could not adopt little boys but they could sexually abuse them and marry them??

Please tell me the logic behind it. I am dying to hear it.

33:4 Allah has not made for any man two hearts in his (one) body: nor has He made your wives whom ye divorce by Zihar your mothers: nor has He made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But Allah tells (you) the Truth, and He shows the (right) Way.

What does this gibberish mean?
Of course your wives are not your mothers! Do you really need ALLAH to tell you that? Of course your adopted sons are not your BLOOD related sons, but still this verse proves NOTHING. It doesn't even say it is forbidden to adopt.
The word "BUT", however is interesting, for if Allah tells you the truth and shows the right way, then you would know that DESPITE the children not being yours, you can take them as yours and care for them.

Has Allah then given you green card to rape minors instead of adopting them?

Morrigan

Danish:

Debate abandoned due to provacative language.

I see.. take the easy way out instead, huh?
I thought you had balls. How can I debate with an over sensitive teenager?

Comparing Muhammad to your father was the worst thing you have said so far today. If I were you I would remove such words, for you have undermined your father's love for you, and his character.

Besides, you don't even know Muhammad! And never will. So please quit this extreme show of desperation for a historical figure that you haven't even met. My heart is not melting for you.

Danish

..

Comparing Muhammad to your father



a thousand times greater and loved and dear to me than my father. the prophet is most dear to me after God. I hope you would understand my reluctance to debate under the condition that you call a historical figure whatever you want.

i wont like it and since i have no compulsion to talk to you, i would avoid a conversation that upsets me. it was nice debating with you and i learned a lot

also, when you learn about someone from a source that hates him, you would have nothing but hatred for him. try giving the other side a chance too. every coin has two sides. i am listening to your side, you should listen to mine. if you wish


you also said "My People", what does that mean?

Morrigan

a thousand times greater and loved and dear to me than my father.

Who? Muhammad? Why is that? Has he given birth to you? Has he fed you, cleaned you, or given you education? Please enlighten me, Danish... what has this dead man ever done for you? I would be interested to know where your love comes from.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that you HAVE TO love this unknown man in order to be a Muslim, would it?

the prophet is most dear to me after God. I hope you would understand my reluctance to debate under the condition that you call a historical figure whatever you want.

Well, I really wish I could understand but I can't. I don't see how any SANE person, with all his marbles intact, would say that an unknown man and an unknown g-d are dearer to them than their own FAMILY who spend their time money and love in bringing them up.
Your family should ALWAYS come FIRST in your life. Not in second place to a dead man and an unknown / fake g-d. And I am being serious here.

You got to get your priorities right my boy! You lack common sense. Your words are just rhetorics which I am tired of listening! I have seen many people claim the same rubbish and yet, they don't even know Muhammad or g-d. How amusing this is...
Another proof that Islam brainwashes people and removes their sanity and common sense.

i wont like it and since i have no compulsion to talk to you, i would avoid a conversation that upsets me. it was nice debating with you and i learned a lot

Good. I am happy you did! Now, leave Islam as you promised, since I have already proven it is a fake cult and the Quran's many fallacies. These were the conditions, right?

Morrigan

also, when you learn about someone from a source that hates him, you would have nothing but hatred for him. try giving the other side a chance too. every coin has two sides. i am listening to your side, you should listen to mine. if you wish

Very well. I will listen to your side then. Please tell me who you think Muhammad was, and provide evidence to back up your claims, as I have done.
And please don't use only Quran, use everything in Islam. Hadiths, Quran, Islamic law, islamic history (principally), and last but not least, Muslims' behaviour when they follow the words of this man.

I am listening....

you also said "My People", what does that mean?

Pagans and Jews.

Danish

..

keep your prejudices to yourself, i aint interested at all in your opinion about me.
can we continue without you insulting the prophet or is this debate over?

..


God gave me my parents. They will die... God wont. On the day of judgement, all these relationships wont count. The only relationship that would count would be that of my creator and me.


My mother loves Allah more than me. For a mother, thats the best she can do.


i love the prophet cause i have read the other side of the coin which you havent.

Danish

..


Please tell me who you think Muhammad was, and provide evidence to back up your claims, as I have done.



You havent given any evidences... anyway.


Muhammad ( peace be upon him ) was an orpan. A boy who lost both his parents and guardian in early childhood. He grew up under the care of his grand father.

Through out his life, he was a very introvert and shy man and spent a lot of his time isolated in caves or with friends of a similar nature.

When he grew up he assisted a widow, Khadija, in her trade and later they both married. Muhammads lifestyle continued to be one of isolation and introvertness.

16 years later, while he was mediatating in the cave, he was called upon by God angels and given the charge of prophethood.


..


through his early life as a prophet, Muhammad went through a lot of problems. At one place people threw stones at him till his shoes were full of blood. he was boycotted. his business came to an end and he became very very poor.

most people called him a liar and mocked him, a few of them believed in him.

for 13 years Muhammad kept trying to convinve the meccans. kept telling them he is not lying and is asking for nothing in return.

then he went to medina where islam grew stronger. i wont bore you anymore with history .



...



as a person what i love most about the prophet was his introvertness.

its amusing to read hadeeth where the narrator mentions, the prophet smiled till his premolars were visible, or that the prophet smiled....

no one ever reported that the prophet laughed out loud

when a person is so shy that he is decent even in his smiling...that makes him very lovable to me.

..

Also what i like is the fact that he never claimed to be God. He never claimed to be the greatest prophet and he died very poor. the only thing he left behind was his saddle, nothin else.

despite being a king, all he had was a saddle.

...


this is Muhammad, the man you didnt know

Danish

..


all these stories that degrade him, are part of the parcel i think. When some people love him, others hate him. Jews hated christ who is loved by more than half the world.


They call him a paedophile. Aisha was engaged to be married to Jaffar when she was six. it was a custom for girls to get married at that age. her father wanted to marry her to the prophet, and he agreed. the marriage was consumated when Aisha turned 9 or 13 and that is the lowest age of marriage for muslims now.


paedophiles dont marry old widows and divorcees. All other wives of the prophet were women above 30 and 40. They were all widows or divorcees, all except aisha.

you dont call such a man paedophile. Paedophile are obsessed only with young girls. paedophiles develop this tendency when they are young.


the prophet married ayesha when he was 53 or 56. she was the only virgin he married. you think that is 'obsession with young girls'


thats a ridiculous claim and it hurts us. but people would never stop mocking or loving Allah's messengers. They have all been mocked, but in the end, they prevailed and today, a mojority loves and respects them.


36:30 Ah! Alas for (My) Servants! There comes not an apostle to them but they mock him!

Morrigan

keep your prejudices to yourself, i aint interested at all in your opinion about me.

You need to know my opinions the same way as I listen to yours. This is what a dialogue consists of.

can we continue without you insulting the prophet or is this debate over?

I am not insulting him. I am describing him.

God gave me my parents. They will die... God wont. On the day of judgement, all these relationships wont count. The only relationship that would count would be that of my creator and me.

Danish first of all, g-d did NOT give you your parents. You were born as part of a natural process between a man and a woman's relationship in the bedroom. Yes they will die, and so will you, but g-d won't die because there is no g-d. There never was. And there is no such thing as day of judgment, for this day will never ever come. There will be no relationship between YOU and g-d because when you die you will become energy, the same matter that you were before coming to life.

If you think g-d is a human or a deity with some sort of conscience you will be very disappointed.. but that won't matter as you will be dead. Without a brain. And if you have no brain, you have no memory or capability to think. You become ETHERIAL.

ETHER has no flesh, no brain, thus no mind. No memory, no feeling.... nothing. Absolutely nothing.

My mother loves Allah more than me. For a mother, thats the best she can do.

Does she know that Allah was the pagan's moon g-d in pre-islamic Arabia or she thinks this Allah is a real g-d too? Anyway.... let her be with her faith. Let her find consolation in it if she wants. Some people could die or go insane without faith.. they are not strong enough.

Danish

..


lady, it is your assumption that there is no God. I know God. I know he exists. There is absolutely no doubt of that in my mind.

Lets not talk about God or Muhammad....lets bring it on to the Quran.


I know God exists, you need to tell me why the Quran isnt God's word.


find me ONE mistake in the Quran and all my beliefs fall with it. The Quran has to be perfect to be divine.

so no faith or feelings etc here. Pure delicious science.




4:82 Will they not, then, try to understand this Qur’an? Had it issued from any but God, they would surely have found in it many an inner contradiction!

Morrigan

i love the prophet cause i have read the other side of the coin which you havent.

Ok. So you are still claiming to love someone you don't know, because you READ something which you claim I don't know. Correct? Ok.. where is this "other side of the coin" you claimed to have read? Which book? Quran? Hadith? What? Indulge me....

You havent given any evidences... anyway.

Yes I have. But I can always give a lot more if you wish. However, EVEN if I had not given any, you should give me evidence of your claims, as it is you who wishes me to believe in Islam, right? Didn't you say that you would make me believe in Islam? Well then... convince me. Yallah!

Muhammad ( peace be upon him ) was an orpan. A boy who lost both his parents and guardian in early childhood. He grew up under the care of his grand father.

Like millions in this world.. so?

Through out his life, he was a very introvert and shy man and spent a lot of his time isolated in caves or with friends of a similar nature.

Who told you that? Who was there recording Muhammad's life story while he was a poor little orphan boy? Was he that special at that time that someone would write his life story? Was he a king? A Caesar? An emperor? LOL!

Oh please! Danish, if you will make such ridiculous claims, you will have to prove them.
Ok?

When he grew up he assisted a widow, Khadija, in her trade and later they both married. Muhammads lifestyle continued to be one of isolation and introvertness.

Muhammad was EMPLOYED by Khadija at the request of his uncle. Khadija was the RICHEST WOMAN in Mecca in case you don't know. She was Jewish woman but not a practicing Jewess, since she had several types of beliefs. Her family was Jewish (Mother's side) and Christian by her father's side.

Danish

..

Does she know that Allah was the pagan's moon g-d in pre-islamic Arabia


she needent know that. she knows Allah is arabic for God.
Muhammad's (pbuh) father was called Abdullah....which means slave of God.

So dont bring that old logic here

Danish

..

i never said i would convert you to Islam, i said you'll stop hating it, inshallah.

..

Through out his life, he was a very introvert and shy man and spent a lot of his time isolated in caves or with friends of a similar nature.

Who told you that? Who was there recording Muhammad's life story while he was a poor little orphan boy? Was he that special at that time that someone would write his life story? Was he a king? A Caesar? An emperor? LOL!


His wife, his friends, people who knew him....he did exist before the prophethood you know.




When he grew up he assisted a widow, Khadija, in her trade and later they both married. Muhammads lifestyle continued to be one of isolation and introvertness.


Muhammad was EMPLOYED by Khadija at the request of his uncle. Khadija was the RICHEST WOMAN in Mecca in case you don't know. She was Jewish woman but not a practicing Jewess, since she had several types of beliefs. Her family was Jewish (Mother's side) and Christian by her father's side.



She wasnt the richest, not even close to it. Her wealth didnt last more than a few years after the prophethood.

Danish

..


where is the other side of the coin you seem to have read


http://www.al-sunnah.com/nektar/

This is one of the best biographies. Every statement is backed by sources. It also won several awards

Morrigan

He worked for Khadija, travelling on her behalf to several destinations, trading in spices, wood, silks and the sorts.... Khadija fell for Muhammad (She was 40 and he was 25). Well, there is nothing wrong with that, after all what older woman doesn't like a bit of fresh meat? He was young and fresh, willing to marry her, so why not?

So they married, and he became entitled to her FORTUNE when she died. Of course, as it was expected. He inherited her money. This is precisely WHEN he started making up an army to defeat his enemies and when he started marrying all sorts of young girls, not to mention have fun with them. FACT. Not insult, not denigration.

16 years later, while he was mediatating in the cave, he was called upon by God angels and given the charge of prophethood.

Obviously I don't believe in this, but that's not relevant. What I want to know is: Why was Muhammad MEDITATING? The only religions that taught MEDITATION in those days were JUDAISM (Kabbalah), and HINDUISM (Yoga).
What was he meditating about? What was his RELIGIOUS background? DO you even know?

through his early life as a prophet, Muhammad went through a lot of problems. At one place people threw stones at him till his shoes were full of blood. he was boycotted. his business came to an end and he became very very poor.

These are all lies. Muhammad was attacked because he preached that HIS religion was superior, and he called for the MURDER of all the people who did not believe in him or followed him. He DENIGRATED other people's beliefs and started to OPPRESS WOMEN. This is why he was attacked.

Now Muslims throw stones at women instead... very sad. Barbaric.

Muhammad was NEVER poor. He did not lose business, he simply left the TRADING business to focus on PREACHING to others.

Danish

..

So they married, and he became entitled to her FORTUNE when she died. Of course, as it was expected. He inherited her money. This is precisely WHEN he started making up an army to defeat his enemies


prove this. i say that all their fortune ended within years of the revelation. Khadija died very poor and if i remember correctly, she died from a diease she got because of surviving on leaves.

this happened during the boycott



your posts are again very offensive. i would stop this discussion if you dont heed

Danish

..

These are all lies. Muhammad was attacked because he preached that HIS religion was superior, and he called for the MURDER of all the people who did not believe in him or followed him. He DENIGRATED other people's beliefs and started to OPPRESS WOMEN. This is why he was attacked.

Muhammad was NEVER poor. He did not lose business, he simply left the TRADING business to focus on PREACHING to others.



so you know nothin. what is the source of your claims

..

anyway, lets focus on the quran, i dont think i would be able to tolerate you if we talk about the prophet





please bring your list of mistakes in the Quran.

Morrigan

most people called him a liar and mocked him, a few of them believed in him.

Have you ever wondered why?
Has Muhammad ever prophecised anything? Any miracles performed?
Did he raise the dead or raise from the dead?
Did he turn water into wine or blood?



for 13 years Muhammad kept trying to convinve the meccans. kept telling them he is not lying and is asking for nothing in return.

Why didn't Allah do this for him? Why did he have to CONVINCE people by waging wars and murdering them instead?
Did Moses have to do that? Did Muhammad sent plagues to the Meccans like Moses did to the Egyptians? Did Allah open the rivers for Muhammad as he had done for Moses? Well, that G-d was YHVH, not Allah, so I guess he is more powerful than Allah, no doubt.

then he went to medina where islam grew stronger. i wont bore you anymore with history .

It's cool. I like it. But I already know all this. You can talk about it if you like, though.


as a person what i love most about the prophet was his introvertness.

But Danish, you don't know if he was like that. These are stories from people who were not even there.. written some 200 years AFTER him. What could you possibly know about him?

Does a person who calls for the genocide of a whole tribe sounds like an INTROVERT to you???

its amusing to read hadeeth where the narrator mentions, the prophet smiled till his premolars were visible, or that the prophet smiled

Why amusing? I see people smile beautifully everyday. Hitler also smiled.. and Osama, and Vlad the Impaler. What's your point with this?
You speak of him as if he was a g-d or a saint!! Snap out of it!

Danish

...

i want to discuss the prophet with you, but then you get so offensive. its better we shift our focus to the Quran, i am very sensitive to bad things said about someone i love so dearly

Morrigan

Also what i like is the fact that he never claimed to be God. He never claimed to be the greatest prophet and he died very poor. the only thing he left behind was his saddle, nothin else.
despite being a king, all he had was a saddle.

Danish:

An-nisaa 4:80

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

Here Muhammad is compared to ALLAH. Blasphemy or what??? Heresy!
If you obey the messenger you are said to be obeying Allah. Muhammad claimed to be G-D!!!! He ALWAYS claimed to be the LAST prophet, which came to FIX the errors of previous prophets, thus elevating himself to the position of GREATEST. He died poisoned by a Jewish woman. And if he was POOR, it was because he had lost everything through his antics. Allah ABANDONED him.

this is Muhammad, the man you didnt know

Did you know him?

all these stories that degrade him, are part of the parcel i think. When some people love him, others hate him. Jews hated christ who is loved by more than half the world.

Jews don't hate Christ. Who told you such thing?

They call him a paedophile. Aisha was engaged to be married to Jaffar when she was six. it was a custom for girls to get married at that age.

No my friend. It wasn't. Girls in PRE-Islamic Arabia married at 13, 14, and even 30 or 40. So did MEN. Boys and girls of 14, 16... were married. NOT old men of 57 to little girls of 9!!
That is pedophilia whether you like it or not!!

her father wanted to marry her to the prophet, and he agreed. the marriage was consumated when Aisha turned 9 or 13 and that is the lowest age of marriage for muslims now.

LIES. Her father Abu Bakr did NOT want to marry her to Muhammad. The Hadiths are CLEAR on that one!

Danish

..


ok, lets not discuss the prophet anymore. i don think i can do that with you. but i would love to do that with someone like Partha who is a lot more decent.

Morrigan

Let me show you:

Narrated 'Ursa

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." (Sahih Bukhari 7.18)

See? He said BUT I am your brother! This clearly shows a sign of DISGUST that Muhammad could ask for such a thing from his BEST FRIEND!! Can you see the low morals he had? Can you??????

paedophiles dont marry old widows and divorcees. All other wives of the prophet were women above 30 and 40. They were all widows or divorcees, all except aisha.

Most pedophiles are MARRIED MEN who have children too. Don't tell me what pedophiles do because I see it all the time! His other wives were NOT OLD widows or divorcees, they were ALL BEAUTIFUL women he chose. None of them was OLD, SICK or LAME.
HE picked the prettiest ones and also slept with his SLAVES.

you dont call such a man paedophile. Paedophile are obsessed only with young girls. paedophiles develop this tendency when they are young.

Danish, you are not defending him very well, are you? Pedophiles don't develop this tendency when they are young, but when they are OLD!!! Learn something for a change!!

the prophet married ayesha when he was 53 or 56. she was the only virgin he married. you think that is 'obsession with young girls'

I am not talking about VIRGINITY. I am talking about AGE.
He was a pedophile because he also married SAFIYAH, who was 17 years old and he was 60!!!

Would you let your 17 year old marry a 60 year old man?? What would you call this today? PEDOPHILIA. Accept it. It's a fact.

Danish

^ and the verses giving permission for war were given at Medina. Not mecca


this incident where he bled so much that his shoes were full of blood, happened at Taid, a few days after the death of Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her)

Danish

...


ok, we will discuss the prophet... but please. dont be offensive. ok

say ok and we will continue

Danish

^not 6, 9 or 13

Danish

..


morrigan , do yo agree.....no offensive words ( fresh flesh etc )

Morrigan

lady, it is your assumption that there is no God. I know God. I know he exists. There is absolutely no doubt of that in my mind.

Ok. As you wish. When you see him, say hello to him and tell him to send another prophet down to sort the mess that the last one did. Ok?

I know God exists, you need to tell me why the Quran isnt God's word.

Ok. I think I already exposed its fallacies, well at least some of them. It would take me ages to expose all of it, but we can go by parts if you want.

I have nothing against you believing in G-d, but if you do, at least do NOT attribute such books to him. You make your g-d look very bad indeed. That book was written by MUHAMMAD, in which he COPIED 80% from Judaism and Christianity, then changed it, repackaged it and said it was QURAN for a new religion called ISLAM. SUBMISSION.

Only this submission was to HIM and not G-d. (Obey the MESSENGER and you will be obeying ALLAH. Remember?)

find me ONE mistake in the Quran and all my beliefs fall with it. The Quran has to be perfect to be divine.

Huh??? What do you think I have been SHOWING YOU all this time??? ALL MISTAKES! All corruptions! All proofs that Quran is NOT perfect, nor divine!!

Believe in G-d if you want... but you don't need QURAN for that!


4:82 Will they not, then, try to understand this Qur’an? Had it issued from any but God, they would surely have found in it many an inner contradiction!

These words were already proven false. I have found contradictions. HUNDREDS of them. Go back to the post about polygamy and justice to women.

WELL??? what can you say about that?

Danish, stop ignoring these things. ADMIT it instead.

Morrigan

Danish:

Ok. But where was I offensive?

Danish

ok, tomorrow then.

we will discuss contradictions in the quran first cause that is infallible for a muslim.

if you can prove that, then everything falls anyway. if you cant, we will move on to discussing the prophet.

should we start a "Debate btw Morrigan and Danish - Part 2"


bring the contradictions in the quran to start it

Danish

..

Danish is never gonna admit that the Koran is not from God


i obviously cannot refute clear evidence. Clear evidence is clear evidence

Danish

...


also i am very keen to discuss your views about the prophet. If anyone thinks things like he married Kahdija for money and built an army from it....they would obvioulsy hate the prophet


but these are not true. let people decide whether we should discuss about the prophet (new topic) or about the contradictions (much discussed topic)


...

Morrigan

prove this. i say that all their fortune ended within years of the revelation. Khadija died very poor and if i remember correctly, she died from a diease she got because of surviving on leaves.

Danish, according to your Islamic history, Khadijah died of HUNGER. Obviously this was not so, but this is what it says.

what is the source of your claims

Quran, Hadiths, Islamic History, Islamic archaeology.

Look Danish, I don't want to hurt you. I don't want you to be so over sensitive about this either. ok? You are a MAN, so please be one. Be strong and learn how to accept criticism. I am not telling you these things because I have a vendetta against Muhammad. I am just trying to teach you a few things about him and Islam.

I regret that my words may be harsh and upset you, but I don't know how I could discuss with you without telling things as they are.

It is upsetting for me to see you praising a man who committed all these crimes against women, children, boys and MY PEOPLE! It is very annoying to see Muslims blessing such genocidal character. It hurts me too you know?

Think about it! The people in Khyber were JEWS. Men, women, children....
Muhammad waged wars against them because they did not accept him as a prophet. Couldn't he just LET THEM BE and move somewhere else???

He was not even living there for g-d's sake!! Did he have to murder everyone and take Safiyah, the daughter of the CHIEF and coincidentally the prettiest one?

Did he have to SHARE the rest of the surviving women amongst his barbarian men, who murdered all their families????

Do you call such a man PROPHET?
Where are your morals? Where is ALLAH's morals when he allows such thing to happen in his name?

Danish

..

It is very annoying to see Muslims blessing such genocidal character. It hurts me too you know?

Think about it! The people in Khyber were JEWS. Men, women, children....


fine, so i aint using offensive words against the jews, you dont use them against the prophet. lets not use adjectives ok. simple as that. Clear precise educated discussion


and i am so looking forward to it

Morrigan

Danish:

ok, tomorrow then.
we will discuss contradictions in the quran first cause that is infallible for a muslim.

Ok. As you wish.

if you can prove that, then everything falls anyway. if you cant, we will move on to discussing the prophet.

Ok. So if I prove that, will you leave Islam?

should we start a "Debate btw Morrigan and Danish - Part 2"
bring the contradictions in the quran to start it

Sure! Will do.

also i am very keen to discuss your views about the prophet. If anyone thinks things like he married Kahdija for money and built an army from it....they would obvioulsy hate the prophet

Not necessarily. They are just quoting History. How can anyone hate a dead man who cannot cause any more harm?

but these are not true. let people decide whether we should discuss about the prophet (new topic) or about the contradictions (much discussed topic)

We decide. This is OUR debate. You decide. ok? I let you pick your favourite.

I will let you rest now. Let's go to another topic and chill out.

--------------------------------------------

Partha & others:

I am NOT ignoring you. I just wanted to debate with DANISH as it is better for people to understand things on a one to one basis.
I had opened a topic to discuss these issues outside this debate, but you deleted it.
If you let the one Shiroo opened remain, then I will reply to you all over there ok?

Morrigan

fine, so i aint using offensive words against the jews, you dont use them against the prophet. lets not use adjectives ok. simple as that. Clear precise educated discussion
and i am so looking forward to it

Too late.. Muhammad already insulted us by calling us pigs and monkeys. But you don't have to.

Yes. I am looking forward to it too. What will it be? Prophet character or Qu'ran contradictions?
Up to you!

Thanks for the debate!