Saturday, 17 April 2010

Orkut debate btw Morrigan Dunn x Muhammad Omer

Lack of morality in the Quran
DEBATE BETWEEN: MORRIGAN & OMER

No one else is allowed to post in this topic. The moderator has undertaken a promise to delete any other post (including his own).

Round 1:

Slave girls as sexual property in the Quran


The Quran makes women subordinate to men in many ways. (read this)
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/10/women_are_inferior_to_men_in_t.html

But no women subject to the rule of Quranic law are more unfortunate than slave girls. According to the eternal and unchanging scripture of Islam, men are permitted to treat them as sexual property regardless of their wishes, under certain specified circumstances.

Sura (Chapter) 23 of the Quran was revealed during Muhammad’s life in Mecca before his Hijrah or Emigration from his home city to Medina in AD 622. During the early years of his ministry, he never waged war on anyone, so these were times of peace, although he suffered from a measure of persecution. [1]

The Quran in Sura 23:5-6 says:

5 [Most certainly true believers] . . . guard their private parts scrupulously, 6 except with regard to their wives and those who are legally in their possession, for in that case they shall not be blameworthy. (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 3, p. 237)

The key words are “those who are legally in their possession.” Maududi (d. 1979) is a highly respected commentator on the Quran, and he interprets the plain meaning of the clause, saying that sex with slave-girls is lawful.

Morrigan

Jul 26 Maududi writes:

Two categories of women have been excluded from the general command of guarding the private parts: (a) wives, (b) women who are legally in one’s possession, i.e. slave-girls. Thus the verse clearly lays down the law that one is allowed to have sexual relation with one’s slave-girl as with one’s wife, the basis being possession and not marriage. If marriage had been the condition, the slave-girl also would have been included among the wives, and there was no need to mention them separately. (ibid. p. 241, note 7)

=========

OMER:

Address the points now. DEFEND IT. I will wait for you.


Mohammad

Jul 26

Rules to be followed
1) Only Morrigan and Omer will be allowed to post in this thread.
2) Please make the post in Points.
3) No Abuses
4) Any claims need to be backed up with Proper References from proper sources.
5) Links can be provided only for references, not for preaching.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: Morrigan, I am debating with you, not with the websites. So kindly refrain from giving links to other websites except when you need to give ref. to something. The link you gave has hardly got anything to do with this topic you started here. Looking forward for your co-operation in this regard

Mohammad

Jul 26

According to the eternal and unchanging scripture of Islam, men are permitted to treat them as sexual property regardless of their wishes, under certain specified circumstances.

Kindly provide some reference from the eternal and unchanging scripture of Islam that "men are permitted to treat those (whom their right hand possess) regardless of their wishes"

Lack of morality in the Quran

Maududi (d. 1979) is a highly respected commentator on the Quran, and he interprets the plain meaning of the clause, saying that sex with slave-girls is lawful.


Now, first tell me, what set of moral values do you follow?

Which set of moral values tell you that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral?

What makes you believe that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral and having sexual relationship with ones wife is moral?

How do you define morality?


Morrigan

1. The link was NOT a reference. It was a point of argument.

2. The references WERE provided: (See below)

a) Sura 23:5-6
b) Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 3, p. 237
c) Maududi (d. 1979)

I guess you deliberately missed them.
============================

1. Regarding rules.. - you don't make the rules here. I do. I am the one who wants ANSWERS.

2. You don't ask me questions. I do. You just REPLY to them. (You are the defender)

3. If you want to ask me questions, please open another topic and put your questions to me there. Here YOU answer.
==================

DEBATE

[Muhammad] - Kindly provide some reference from the eternal and unchanging scripture of Islam that "men are permitted to treat those (whom their right hand possess) regardless of their wishes"

[Morrigan] – The Quran in Sura 23:5-6 says:

5 [Most certainly true believers] . . . guard their private parts scrupulously, 6 except with regard to their wives and those who are legally in their possession, for in that case they shall not be blameworthy. (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 3, p. 237)



The Quran tells Muslim MEN to abstain (guard their private parts) from women who are NOT their wives or THOSE WHO ARE LEGALLY IN THEIR POSSESSION.
The women who are legally in a man's possession is a SLAVE.
Hence Muslims are told by Muhammad (on behalf of Allah) that they can have intercourse with any woman who is legally theirs or their wives.
Note that BOTH ARE MENTIONED SEPARATELY.


Morrigan

ACCUSATION:

[Morrigan] Maududi (d. 1979) is a highly respected commentator on the Quran, and he interprets the plain meaning of the clause, saying that sex with slave-girls is lawful.

Muhammad was supposed to address this. Instead here is his answer:

Now, first tell me, what set of moral values do you follow?
Which set of moral values tell you that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral?
What makes you believe that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral and having sexual relationship with ones wife is moral?
How do you define morality?


Muhammad has NOT REPLIED to my question. Instead he tries to divert the situation.


Muhammad, allow me to remind you. I am not here to answer to YOU. You are here to answer to ME. If you cannot do it, then leave this debate and find me a Muslim who CAN debate and answer me.

I am not here to debate on what is moral to YOU or not. RAPE is RAPE. To have sexual intercourse without the consent of a woman is RAPE.

And if you already have a WIFE, why would you have any RIGHT to have sexual intercourse with a captive who is NOT your wife?

If this is the case, so WOMEN can also do so. They can have sexual intercourse with their husbands AND with their slaves.

Do you agree?


Mohammad

Point 1
You said

1. The link was NOT a reference. It was a point of argument.

My Response"

I said I was debating with you, not with any links. Put forth 'your' arguments, not those given in links. Otherwise, I will be posting links too and then there will be a debate between different internet links, not between you and me.

Point 2
You said:

5 [Most certainly true believers] . . . guard their private parts scrupulously, 6 except with regard to their wives and those who are legally in their possession, for in that case they shall not be blameworthy. (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Quran, vol. 3, p. 237)

My Response:

Where does the Quran says that "men are permitted to treat those (whom their right hand possess) regardless of their wishes"?!?!


Mohammad

Point 3
You said:

The Quran tells Muslim MEN to abstain (guard their private parts) from women who are NOT their wives or THOSE WHO ARE LEGALLY IN THEIR POSSESSION.

The women who are legally in a man's possession is a SLAVE.

Hence Muslims are told by Muhammad (on behalf of Allah) that they can have intercourse with any woman who is legally theirs or their wives.


My Response:

Allah (swt) says in the Quran:

Ila/Except A'ala/From Azwajihim/their wives Aoo/or Maa/What Malakat/Possess Aiemaanuhum/Their right hands

These Malakat Aiemaanuhum/Possession of "right" hands are the female captives of war. In a war men are killed and women and children are left behind because a war is basically between men. These women are then captured in the war and because their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have died in the war, they are left alone to look after themselves without any safety. Some of them are such that if they are not taken as captives, they can rebel against the government which can take shape of another war. So for their own safety, they are captured and the Caliph distributes them amongst the Muslims and then they are in their possession, living safely under the roof of their house.

The way you call a woman your wife after performing certain ceremonies and the relationship of husband and wife is established, just like that when a female captive is given to a Muslim to be under his possession, the relationship between them is that of "'Right' hand possession".

Why did not Allah (swt) said, what your "Left hands possess"? It is because right hand has a special significence in Islam. Muslims are ordered to use their Right hands to do their everyday life work, like eating, drinking, giving, taking etc. Left hand is used for washing dirt etc. So calling them Right hand possession means that a Muslim has to treat them with kindness and in a best manner.

Mohammad

Sexual relationship with THEM is allowed in Islam, just like sexual relationship with ones wife is allowed.

Point 4
You said:

Muhammad has NOT REPLIED to my question. Instead he tries to divert the situation.

Muhammad, allow me to remind you. I am not here to answer to YOU. You are here to answer to ME. If you cannot do it, then leave this debate and find me a Muslim who CAN debate and answer me.


My Response:

Your point from the beginning was that having sex with female captives of war is immoral. Hence, before I could answer you, I would like to know your answers to the questions I posed to you. As for your saying that you are not here to answer me and I am here to answer YOU, then let me remind you too that this is a "DEBATE" not a "QUESTION & ANSWER SESSION"! So answer the following questions like a good girl:

1. what set of moral values do you follow?

2. Which set of moral values tell you that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral?

3. What makes you believe that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral and having sexual relationship with ones wife is moral?

4. How do you define morality?

You need to clarify what u mean by immoral, or I can declare it as Completely Moral and end the debate.

Mohammad

Jul 26

Point 5
Then you say:

To have sexual intercourse without the consent of a woman is RAPE.

My Response:

That is what I asked you before that where does the quran says that you can have sexual intercourse with "your female captive" without her consent? Islam does not permit Muslims to force their female captives of war to have intercourse with them without their consent.

In Mishkatul Masabi, Page 292, The Prophet (saw) said:

Those slaves you are satisfied with should be fed as you are fed and clothed as you are clothed, those with whom you are dis-satisfied should be sold for you should not punish the servants of Allah (swt).


So here the Prophet (saw) has said clearly that if a slave (Male of Female) does not satisfy you in any matter, you should NOT Punish the Servants of Allah (swt) but should let them away. So rape here is clearly prohibited.

The Prophet (saw) also said in Sahih Muslim:

Book 015, Number 4095:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is essential to feed the slave, clothe him (properly) and not burden him with work which is beyond his power.


So if even overburdening and punishing and abusing is prohibited, how can something as rape be allowed?

Also if through sexual intercourse, the female captive gets pregnant from her master, she would automatically gain her freedom.

There are so many ahadith, but I think its enough for now.

Point 6
You Said:

And if you already have a WIFE, why would you have any RIGHT to have sexual intercourse with a captive who is NOT your wife?

My Response:

What is wrong in having sexual intercourse with a captive if you already have a wife? :s

Point 7
You said:

If this is the case, so WOMEN can also do so. They can have sexual intercourse with their husbands AND with their slaves.

Do you agree?


My Response:

No I do not agree with that, because Islam does not permit women to do so. It's just like saying that if a man is allowed to marry 4 women, why can't a woman marry 4 men? So I would say that Islam prohibits that, must a certain wisdom behind its prohibition. If you think that women should also be aloud to do so, then you may do it if your religion or country allows you to do so.

Note: I want a response to all these 7 points. Thankyou.


Morrigan

Point 1

[Muhammad] I said I was debating with you, not with any links. Put forth 'your' arguments, not those given in links. Otherwise, I will be posting links too and then there will be a debate between different internet links, not between you and me.

[Morrigan] -Ignored. This is the point that YOU must address before carrying on to the next:

Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?

Point 2

[Muhammad] Where does the Quran says that "men are permitted to treat those (whom their right hand possess) regardless of their wishes"?!?!

[Morrigan] - You ANSWER my question. You do not ASK me questions.
Address the point.

Point 3

[Muhammad] - Allah (swt) says in the Quran:

Ila/Except A'ala/From Azwajihim/their wives Aoo/or Maa/What Malakat/Possess Aiemaanuhum/Their right hands

These Malakat Aiemaanuhum/Possession of "right" hands are the female captives of war. In a war men are killed and women and children are left behind because a war is basically between men. These women are then captured in the war and because their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have died in the war, they are left alone to look after themselves without any safety. Some of them are such that if they are not taken as captives, they can rebel against the government which can take shape of another war. So for their own safety, they are captured and the Caliph distributes them amongst the Muslims and then they are in their possession, living safely under the roof of their house.


Allah did NOT say all that in the Quran. These are YOUR opinions, and as such will not be accepted. So, I shall dissect the FACTS of your comment for debate:

see in the next post...


Morrigan

FACTS:

1. the female captives of war - Here we see that even Omer agrees that these females were CAPTIVES of WAR. (therefore they were prisoners by the invading Arabs of Muhammad's army)

2. These women are then captured in the war and because their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have died in the war, they are left alone to look after themselves without any safety

Here OMER tried to JUSTIFY their captivity. He uses the word BECAUSE as a justification and he uses further explanation to excuse their capture. I remind him that his explanations mean nothing. The facts are just:

These women are then captured in the war . (It ends here. Everything after that was added by OMER).

Let's imagine a different perspective of the SAME story, but using Omer's logic .

"The Israelis have attacked Pakistan. The Pakistani women were then captured in the war

Now, ANSWER me this:

why would they be captured in the war? Is it...

1. "Because" their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have ALL died in the war and they are left ALL alone to look after themselves without any safety?

OR

2. They were captured as a BOOTY.


And also answer me this:

1. Do you believe that a captured woman would want to have consensual sexual intercourse with her capturer? If YES, explain how and why.


Morrigan

Point 4

[Muhammad] 1. what set of moral values do you follow?

My set of morals does not matter. I don't have to reply to you on my private business.

2. Which set of moral values tell you that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral?

It is immoral when it is without the consent of the captive, which it was in all these cases.. It is RAPE. And if you believe it is NOT immoral tell me why doesn't Islam allow you to have intercourse with "FREE WOMEN"? At least they can refuse you. Captives CANNOT refuse. They are slaves. hence the immorality in the Quran. It allows you to RAPE captives, but it does not allow you to have intercourse with FREE WOMEN unless you MARRY THEM.

I have just proved hereby the Islam condones and encourages RAPE of captives (As Allah believes captives cannot refuse you and are at their capturers' mercy).

3. What makes you believe that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral and having sexual relationship with ones wife is moral?

What makes me THINK? Think about it boy!! Is immoral to YOU to have pre-marital sex?? YES OR NO?
Is immoral to YOU to have sex with anyone else apart from your wife? YES OR NO?

If you say NO, then justify the Quran's stance on pre-marital sex and prostitution.
(You will have to build a brain to talk to me.. trashing your arguments are far too easy!! )


4. How do you define morality?

I already replied too many of your questions, when I did not have to. YOU DEFINE IT for me... define Morality as per ISLAM.

Point 5

[muhammad] That is what I asked you before that where does the quran says that you can have sexual intercourse with "your female captive" without her consent?

Where does it say you must obtain her consent?

You see, when the Quran talks about polygamy, it CLEARLY states you must obtain the consent of the first wife.


Morrigan

[muhammad] So here the Prophet (saw) has said clearly that if a slave (Male of Female) does not satisfy you in any matter, you should NOT Punish the Servants of Allah (swt) but should let them away. So rape here is clearly prohibited.

There is NOTHING referring to RAPE here. Rape was not considered a punishment in Islam.. still isn't. Islam does not recognise RAPE. If you disagree, show me a verse of the Quran where is CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

[Muhammad] Also if through sexual intercourse, the female captive gets pregnant from her master, she would automatically gain her freedom.

It does not matter. It is NOT YOUR decision to make.

Point 6

[Muhammad]What is wrong in having sexual intercourse with a captive if you already have a wife?

What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while she already has a husband? (I want an answer for that).

Point 7

[Muhammad] No I do not agree with that, because Islam does not permit women to do so. It's just like saying that if a man is allowed to marry 4 women, why can't a woman marry 4 men?

Well? Why can't she? Give me a LOGICAL/VALID/SCIENTIFIC reason for your g-d disagreement with it.

[Muhammad]So I would say that Islam prohibits that, must a certain wisdom behind its prohibition. If you think that women should also be aloud to do so, then you may do it if your religion or country allows you to do so.

LOL! Lucky for me I can do whatever I like. But I want to hear the "WISDOM" behind the above disgraceful immoral comment from your g-d though! Indulge me....

Morrigan

To recap on something VERY IMPORTANT:

[Muhammad] Where does the Quran says that "men are permitted to treat those (whom their right hand possess) regardless of their wishes"?

So that our friend Muhammad here knows:

The meaning of the word captive itself means held by force so the women who are captives are obviously not on their own so whatever you do with them is all against their wishes.

So it is obviously implied that you are having sex with them without their consent so no need to separately mention that.

You are trying to run away from answering me, by making such comments.

And THIS is the reason why I don't like to debate with CHILDREN.

You either learn how to debate as an adult, and show me some INTELLECT, or I shall stop debating with you and demand someone intelligent for a change.
I am disappointed. I asked the Muslims to give me THEIR BEST and they come up with YOU.


Morrigan

Jul 26

Resume: Questions for Muhd.Omer to answer
1. Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?


Comprehension skills test for OMER:

"The Israelis have attacked Pakistan. The Pakistani women were then captured in the war....

Questions:

2. why would they be captured in the war? Is it...

1. "Because" their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have ALL died in the war and they are left ALL alone to look after themselves without any safety?

OR

2. They were captured as a BOOTY.


.... waiting...

3. Do you believe that a captured woman would want to have consensual sexual intercourse with her capturer? If YES, explain how and why.

4.Why doesn't Islam allow you to have intercourse with "FREE WOMEN"?

5.Is immoral to YOU to have pre-marital sex?? YES OR NO?

6.justify the Quran's stance on pre-marital sex and prostitution

7. define Morality as per ISLAM.

8. Where in the Quran does it say you must obtain her(The captive's) consent?

9. show me a verse of the Quran where it CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

10. What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while she already has a husband?

11.why can't a woman marry 4 men?Give me a LOGICAL/VALID/SCIENTIFIC reason for your g-d's disagreement with it. (Or Muhammad, who wrote the Quran himself).


I want a straight reply for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. I don't want you asking me questions.. I want you to reply. Is that CLEAR?


Morrigan

Jul 27

WAITING...

I have a lot more to ask you!
Hurry up.


Morrigan

Jul 27

12. Which noble muslim girl would love to have sex with a male who has killed her parents , husband and her brothers?

The answer is obviously no one.

So it would be unfair on our part to assume that the slaves who had sex with the prophet agreed to it . It would also be unfair for us to assume that slaves of war today would agree to have sex with us . especially when we have killed their beloved ones.(Remember the war in Iraq?? Americans were said to have "raped"some POWs... was that so? Or shall we use Muhammad Omer's PSEUDO LOGIC to assume that all these POWs were having CONSENSUAL SEX with the Americans?


So if quran is telling me that it is ok to have sex with the slaves then obviously i am doing it against their wish . I am nothing but raping them so who should be blamed ??? the obvious answer is Quran because Quran gives me a permission to do this .

Now if quran is giving me the permission to have sex with slaves then isnt quran prescribing me to rape??

so you see if you go on deducing step by step logically you come to the conclusion that quran prescribes rape of slaves eventhough quran directly doesnt say rape the slaves of the war!!

It is simple LOGIC. And this is what Muslims are lacking here..LOGIC.


Omer, REPLY to my questions.. I even made it a lot easier for you to THINK.


Mohammad

Jul 27

Point 1
You said:

Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?

My Response

Seriously, even if a little girl would have read my posts, she wouldn't have asked this question. I thought you are a quite grown up girl :s.

Point 2
You said:

[Morrigan] - You ANSWER my question. You do not ASK me questions.
Address the point.


My Response:

Oh God! What an arrogant pampered rant you are! I am totally sick of this non-sense. For the last time, I am not going to say that again... so open your eyes wide and read:

This is a "Debate". It is NOT a Question & Answer session. You will ask me questions and I will also ask you questions. You will answer my questions or admit that you have no proof or answer for them whatsoever and I too will answers your questions. Let me also teach you tiny girly that sometimes the answer to a question lies in the counter question. I hope you will understand this now.

So there you go again... You said in the very first post of yours:

According to the eternal and unchanging scripture of Islam, men are permitted to treat them as sexual property regardless of their wishes, under certain specified circumstances.

Kindly do us all a favor, back up this statement of yours from a verse of the Quran which says that man are permitted to treat them as sexual property regardless of their wishes.

Point 3
You said:

Allah did NOT say all that in the Quran. These are YOUR opinions, and as such will not be accepted. So, I shall dissect the FACTS of your comment for debate:

My Response:

Isaac Newton said "To every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". A teacher was explaining this to a girl like Morrigan as to why he said that. The teacher gave that girl all the explanation and taught her practicles to make her understand that 3rd law of Newton, according to the level of her tiny brain. At the end the girl replied:

"Isaac Newton did not say all that, these are YOUR opinions and such will not be accepted"

Point 4
You said:

He uses the word BECAUSE as a justification and he uses further explanation to excuse their capture. I remind him that his explanations mean nothing. The facts are just:

These women are then captured in the war . (It ends here. Everything after that was added by OMER).


My Response:

Explanations mean nothing to those who have no brain to understand them. If my explanations mean nothing, then:

PROVE it that my Explanations Means Nothing! Refute them! OR simply Accept them and stop blabbing like a little girl.

Choice is YOURS!

Note: If in the future I do not get any rebuttal to my explanations then it will be established that you failed to refute them.


Mohammad

Jul 27

Point 5
You said:

"The Israelis have attacked Pakistan. The Pakistani women were then captured in the war

Now, ANSWER me this:

why would they be captured in the war? Is it...

1. "Because" their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have ALL died in the war and they are left ALL alone to look after themselves without any safety?

OR

2. They were captured as a BOOTY.


My Response

You are sitting at your place and talking about what happens in a war. You are not trying to understand the real situation as to what happens in a "War". At that time, everyone use to participate in a war. The pagans use to call on the pagans to go for war and everyone use to come out to fight. The Muslims use to call all Muslims to go for war and everyone use to come out to fight. There was no organized Arm forces fighting for Muslims or the Pagans. So after the war, the situation use to be different from what it becomes today. When the Muslims use to gain victory over the pagans, those who were defeated were taken as Prisoners of war, both men and women. And yes, women use to be left helpless and thus they use to need protection. It was the duty of the caliph to distribute the Female Captives to the Soldiers so that they may dwell in their houses in safety and get equal rights as the Prophet (saw) had commanded. Food, shelter, clothing and safety, what else would they want?!

And mark my words, the opponents, after their defeat, were taken captives ONLY if they were bent on enemity and destruction of Islam. And if their use to be no prisoner exchange between the two parties.

Also the Caliph has got three options:

1. If the prisoners are really dangerous to be freed or kept as slaves and there is a fear of rebellion from them and have committed serious crimes in the past, the Caliph can order their execution.

2. If the prisoners do not belong to the first category, the caliph can ransom them or free them seeking the good pleasure of Allah (swt).

Mohammad

3. Or he can distribute them among the soldiers to live with them under one roof which would provide them shelter and safety.

Point 6
You Said:

And also answer me this:

1. Do you believe that a captured woman would want to have consensual sexual intercourse with her capturer? If YES, explain how and why.


My Response:

Why wouldn't she?! When she is been given a good life to live with her capturer, then why would she refuse? or Why SHOULD she refuse? The capturer has not locked her up in the dungeons and torture her like the Israelites or Amercians do. She eats what the capturer eats, gets clothing of the same quality the capturer wears, she is not over-burdened with any work. She aquires knowledge of Islam and gets the benefit of gaining the Light of Islam. Many of them reverted to Islam when they use to see their capturers practicing Islam and the rights given to them which were not given to anyone before, not even now.

Point 7
You Said:

It is immoral when it is without the consent of the captive, which it was in all these cases.. It is RAPE. And if you believe it is NOT immoral tell me why doesn't Islam allow you to have intercourse with "FREE WOMEN"? At least they can refuse you. Captives CANNOT refuse. They are slaves. hence the immorality in the Quran. It allows you to RAPE captives, but it does not allow you to have intercourse with FREE WOMEN unless you MARRY THEM.

I have just proved hereby the Islam condones and encourages RAPE of captives (As Allah believes captives cannot refuse you and are at their capturers' mercy).

Mohammad

Jul 27

My Response:

You are proving things only to your limited understanding and that tiny walnut inside your head.

Oh yes, It Surely is Immoral to have intercourse with your female captive of war without her consent. Islam does not permit that.

If Islam would allow us to have intercourse with "FREE WOMEN" then every Muslim would be roaming around and having intercourse with FREE WOMEN BECAUSE FREE WOMEN also have intercourse WILLINGLY as it happens in the West and in YOUR Country, and having Intercourse with FREE WOMEN is FORNICATION. In your society men can have tons of Girl Friends and have intercourse with them and then kick them away. In the case of Captives, it ONLY happens in the WAR, a legal Islamic War behind which there is a Caliph a Muslim leader and when Shariah Law is totally Implemented. You can not go around and capture woman and say that this is my captive and I am going to have intercourse with her!

Point 8
You Said:

What makes me THINK? Think about it boy!! Is immoral to YOU to have pre-marital sex?? YES OR NO?
Is immoral to YOU to have sex with anyone else apart from your wife? YES OR NO?

If you say NO, then justify the Quran's stance on pre-marital sex and prostitution.

(You will have to build a brain to talk to me.. trashing your arguments are far too easy!! )


My Response:

I don't really need to "build" a brain... Allah (swt) has already gifted me with and I am thankful to Him for that. So kindly wake up and stop dreaming about "Trashing your Arguments" and act mature. I really doubt that you will ever grow up... Mentally!

Now listen kid, having sex with a woman with whom you are bonded in "Marriage" is Made Lawful by the Religion I follow. By the Moral Values I follow. It is also made Lawful by the Moral Values and Religion that YOU Follow. Just like that my Religion has allowed sexual relationship with female captives of War. So who in the hell says that it is IMMORAL?

Mohammad

Jul 27

The topic you started was "Immorality in Quran i.e. Sex with Female Captives of War" and from the beginning till now, YOU have miserably Failed to Prove that

style="color:red;">Point 9
You Said:

I already replied too many of your questions, when I did not have to. YOU DEFINE IT for me... define Morality as per ISLAM.

My Response:

Fine! You do not answer my Question, Neither will I answer Yours. Then you will be left alone to babble with walls in your room.

Point 10
You Said:

Where does it say yuo must obtain her consent?

You see, when the Quran talks about polygamy, it CLEARLY states you must obtain the consent of the first wife.


My Response:

lol... Quote that Verse of the Quran which CLEARLY states that you must obtain the consent of the First wife. You little ignorant girl!

Having intercourse with female captives of war without their Consent is Rape. And for Rape there is punishment which is Flogging & Exile or Death Penalty. The Prophet (saw) commanded us not even to Overburden those whom Allah (swt) has put under your Authority, so how can anyone have intercourse with them without their consent? YOU Answer me that now.

Point of the Debate: Islam permits Muslims to have intercourse with captives of war without their Consent.
And this girly has miserably Failed to prove that till now.

Mohammad

Jul 27

Point 11
You Said:

There is NOTHING referring to RAPE here. Rape was not considered a punishment in Islam.. still isn't. Islam does not recognise RAPE. If you disagree, show me a verse of the Quran where is CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

My Response:

Showing your ignorance again. The Shariah Law is derived from The Quran and The Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). Why from the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw)? Because the Quran says to Follow the Messenger Muhammad (saw). Because the Quran says that Whosever obeys the Messenger, Has Obeyed Allah (swt).

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"

Mohammad

Jul 27

Point 12:
You Said:

What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while she already has a husband? (I want an answer for that).

No girly, you give me an answer for that. It is YOU who think that it is Wrong... not I. So answer this question now like a goody goody girl.

Point 13
You Said:

No I do not agree with that, because Islam does not permit women to do so. It's just like saying that if a man is allowed to marry 4 women, why can't a woman marry 4 men?

Well? Why can't she? Give me a LOGICAL/VALID/SCIENTIFIC reason for your g-d disagreement with it


My Response:

lol... I don't need to look for any logical/valid/scientific reason for that. It is just against the common laws of nature. This thing if practiced anywhere, has been practiced in minority. Go and ask your "g-d's" Religion and your countries law makers as to why don't they allow this to happen and why don't women generally practice or practiced it?

Mohammad

Jul 27

Point 14
You Said:

The meaning of the word captive itself means held by force so the women who are captives are obviously not on their own so whatever you do with them is all against their wishes.

So it is obviously implied that you are having sex with them without their consent so no need to separately mention that.


Yeah, Held By Force but Treated Like Humans. I gave you tons of ahadith in the previous posts which tell us that we CAN NOT Make Them Do Thinkgs Against Their Wishes.

Next time before posting, go through all the posts 10 times.

Your Last 10 Questions have been answered above, you don't have to act like a parrot here.

You said:

I don't want you asking me questions.. I want you to reply. Is that CLEAR?

My Response:

I will ask YOU Questions and YOU will HAVE TO Answer Every Question I ask Just like I reply to Your Questions. Or Else ignoring my questions and running away for you isn't that difficult, so you can very well do that.

Mohammad

Jul 27

Omer, REPLY to my questions.. I even made it a lot easier for you to THINK.

Have patience baby girl. *Pats on Morrigans Head*. Everyone isn't hopping around freely like you.

Morrigan

Jul 27

Point 1

[Morrigan] Question:
Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?


[Muhammad] His reply: - Seriously, even if a little girl would have read my posts, she wouldn't have asked this question. I thought you are a quite grown up girl :s

The above reply was IGNORED. Answer YES OR NO.

Point 2.

It will be ignored. All gibberish.

[Muhammad] Kindly do us all a favor, back up this statement of
yours from a verse of the Quran which says that man are
permitted to treat them as sexual property regardless of their wishes.


Already REPLIED here:
http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=2500808&tid=2545677157072639883&na=4&nst=9&nid=2500808-2545677157072639883-2545841501867634431

Point 3

A teacher was
explaining this to a girl like Morrigan as to why he said that.
The teacher gave that girl all the explanation and taught her practicles
to make her understand that 3rd law of Newton, according to the level of her tiny brain


... such idiocy will not be accepted. I am not insulting you, therefore I expect the same cordiality. Insults are for losers. Are you a loser? It seems so..

To EVERYONE:

Note how Muhammad Omer has AVOIDED replies to 2 points. Points 2 and 3 were ignored by him. The cracks are beginning to show.

Point 4

Muhammad avoids addressing the point and instead says this:

Explanations mean nothing to those who have no brain to understand them.

He prefers to INSULT instead of addressing the points. Priceless!

And for the ones who forgot.. refer to his point 4 in the previous posts. He is upset that I cannot accept his idiotic explanations/excuses/justifications for the crimes committed by Muslims for Islam.

The funniest thing is that he is truly expecting me to BELIEVE in the following:

These women are then captured in the war "Because" their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have ALL died in the war and they are left ALL alone to look after themselves without any safety

LOL!! And he wonders WHY I cannot accept such statement. hahaha.. oh boy oh boy!!!

Read the following (To all people) - And please, feel free to comment on this in another thread.. I am here laughing actually! hehehe

You are sitting at your place and talking about what happens in a war.
You are not trying to understand the real situation as to what happens
in a "War". At that time, everyone use to participate in a war.
The pagans use to call on the pagans to go for war and
everyone use to come out to fight.
The Muslims use to call all Muslims to go for war and
everyone use to come out to fight. There was no organized Arm
forces fighting for Muslims or the Pagans. So after the war, the situation
use to be different from what it becomes today. When the Muslims use to
gain victory over the pagans, those who were defeated were taken as
Prisoners of war, both men and women. And yes, women use to be left helpless
and thus they use to need protection. It was the duty of the caliph to distribute
the Female Captives to the Soldiers so that they may dwell in their houses in safety and get
equal rights as the Prophet (saw) had commanded. Food, shelter, clothing and safety,
what else would they want?!


Morrigan

Jul 27

The above shows not only a very high level of ignorance, bordering on stupidity, and a very great lack of disrespect not only for Historical evidence but for WOMEN's RIGHTS and tehir feelings.

[Muhammad] - And mark my words, the opponents, after their defeat, were taken captives ONLY if they were bent on enemity and destruction of Islam.

LOL!! Hear hear everyone!! We all know that ALL the women and children these monsters captured and RAPED were indeed hell bent on destruction of Islam!! LOL!
Well, I guess after this they indeed were!

Here we have a Muslim teenager, totally ignorant in Historical events, using his own bullshit in an attempt to convince an archaeologist/historian.. hehehee

(I am really trying to remain calm and not humiliate him)... such disregard for history... I feel like banging my head against the wall.

Muhammad, in other words.. please do not waste my time with BULLSHIT. Ok? Limit yourself to REPLYING my questions. When you try to talk, only crap comes out... and I am getting irritated.

Your Point 5 was a JOKE. Not worth of my replies.


Morrigan

Jul 27

Point 6

[Morrigan asks Muhammad] 1. Do you believe that a captured woman would want to have consensual sexual intercourse with her capturer? If YES, explain how and why.

[Muhammad's reply] - Why wouldn't she?! When she is been given a good life to live with her capturer, then why would she refuse?

===========

Conclusion of point 6:

Muhammad believes that a woman has NO RIGHT to refuse INTERCOURSE/SEX/RAPE with her captors.
Instead of answering YES or NO, he asks people WHY WOULD SHE REFUSE. Muhammad failed miserably to take HER FEELINGS into consideration, and instead prefrs to accept his own idiotic lack of logic.


Please all of you, write down the conclusions separatedly as we will discuss them later.. I will use them to fight against the cause of Islam. Pay attention!!!

CONCLUSION of Point 7

Based on the above idiotic replies from Muhammad Omer, and the overwhelming evidence that Islam (and Muslims) believe that a woman has NO RIGHT to complain against sexual intercourse with her, we conclude hereby that Islam ENCOURAGES RAPE and illegal sexual intercourse with FEMALE CAPTIVES (males too in some cases).

Now I will paste Omer's desperate attempt to justify the IMMORALITY in the Quran and Islam: .... next post. (Let us all LAUGH or CRY together)


Morrigan

Jul 27

Here it is:

If Islam would allow us to have intercourse with "FREE WOMEN" then every
Muslim would be roaming around and having intercourse with FREE WOMEN BECAUSE FREE WOMEN also have intercourse WILLINGLY as it happens in the West and in YOUR Country, and having Intercourse with FREE WOMEN is FORNICATION.


LOL, note that Omer does not say that sex with CAPTIVES (i.e. RAPE) is fornication. As per ISLAM, it is OK to RAPE a woman by force, but it is NOT ok to ASK her consent and obtain it.

(One moment.. I am going to vomit....) ..........................
Ok... back!

In your society men can have tons of Girl Friends and have intercourse with them and then kick them away. In the case of Captives, it ONLY happens
in the WAR, a legal Islamic War behind which there is a Caliph a Muslim leader and when Shariah Law is totally Implemented. You can not go around and capture woman and say that this is my captive and I am going to have intercourse with her!


LOL!! The more he speaks the more he COMPROMISES Islam.

THank you Omer! This is all I wanted to know.

Conclusion:

ISLAM ENCOURAGES RAPE BUT DOES NOT ENCOURAGE LOVE AND RESPECT


I hope my Hindu (and other non muslim friends) are reading this and taking notes, for we will come to the end of this debate and have a JUDGEMENT on ISLAM.


Point 9

Muhammad refuses to DEFINE IMMORALITY as per Islam.


[Muhammad] - Islam permits Muslims to have intercourse with captives of war without their Consent.
And this girly has miserably Failed to prove that till now.


Here we are... Muhammad CONFESSED/AGREED/ACCEPTED that Islam does indeed PERMIT Muslims to RAPE captives of war. And this "girly" has proven just that!!!


Morrigan

Jul 27

Muhammad refused to answer this question:

What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while
she already has a husband? (I want an answer for that).


But he said this:

lol... I don't need to look for any logical/valid/scientific reason for that.
It is just against the common laws of nature.


hahaha! DEFINE the common laws of nature please.

This thing if practiced anywhere, has been practiced in minority.
Go and ask your "g-d's" Religion and your countries law makers as to
why don't they allow this to happen and why don't women generally practice or practiced it?


Who says they don't? What do you know of World history? LOL!!

===========
When I explained to Omer that a captive means to be HELD by force, he said:

Yeah, Held By Force but Treated Like Humans.

hahahahah!!! No comment to such idiocy.


Morrigan

Jul 27

Questions that Muhd. Omer did NOT answer yet:
1. Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?


A story based on Omer's logic:

"The Americans have attacked Pakistan (Muhammad's home to be more precise) .
They captured his mother, his sisters, his aunts and grandmother in this invasion.
They also captured his two younger brothers. His father, his grandfather and his 3 uncles were first tortured,
then murdered.
His mother, his sisters and his 2 younger brothers were gang raped and kept as captives.
(Meaning, they are going to be raped again and again
at the mercy of the generals) , HOWEVER, they are very well fed, and have clean clothes and a decent bed to sleep on,
which is the same bed where the army generals sleep on too.


Questions for Muhammad:

1. Should your mother, sisters, gran and aunties be GRATEFUL to the merciful Americans since they are
well fed, clothed and have a bed to sleep on?

2. Have your mother, sisters, gran and aunties got any right to complain about being RAPED daily?



He hasn't yet replied to these ones:

6.justify the Quran's stance on pre-marital sex and prostitution

7. define Morality as per ISLAM.

8. Where in the Quran does it say you must obtain her(The captive's) consent?

9. show me a verse of the Quran where it CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

10. What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while she already has a husband?

11.why can't a woman marry 4 men?Give me a LOGICAL/VALID/SCIENTIFIC reason for your g-d's disagreement with it. (Or Muhammad, who wrote the Quran himself).

12. Which noble muslim girl would love to have sex with a male who has killed her parents , husband and her brothers? (You can ask any Muslim female to reply to this)


I won't leave you alone until you reply. Yallah...... !!!


Morrigan

Jul 27

Muhammad Omer??? Where are youuuuuuhuuuuuuuu? I want answers, jaan!!

One more question you can answer me:

13. Do you speak Arabic?


Mohammad

You are still the same roberta I debated with 2-3 years back. I thought you might have grown up up till now, but sadly you haven't. It seems that from your birth till now, you have only grown up physically. Mentality is still that of a baby girl. What a little coward you really are, getting stomped by everyone in all the communities, now you hide behind a fake profile.

Guess what? Your response only shows that you are frustrated now and it only proves to the reader that you are mentaly ill. Do yourself a favor, join a good theater and show your acting skills over there, you can become a good entertainer for people like yourself.

Brother Sharjeel, with all due respect, next time please do not get me hooked in a debate with immature babies. Jazakallah khair.

Point 1
You Said:

[Morrigan] Question:
Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?

[Muhammad] His reply: - Seriously, even if a little girl would have read my posts, she wouldn't have asked this question. I thought you are a quite grown up girl :s

The above reply was IGNORED. Answer YES OR NO.


My Response:

Because your pea sized walnut could not get the answer to this question of yours from my posts, so here you go:

"Yes"

Mohammad

Point 2
You Said:

... such idiocy will not be accepted. I am not insulting you, therefore I expect the same cordiality. Insults are for losers. Are you a loser? It seems so..

To EVERYONE:

Note how Muhammad Omer has AVOIDED replies to 2 points. Points 2 and 3 were ignored by him. - the cracks are beginning to show.


My Response:

You are not insulting me? I know that very well actually. Neither am I insulting you, I just gave my comments on your posts. So these are your posts which are are insulting you, not me. Let me get your Points 2 and 3 here which you think I did not responded to.

I have Avoided?! Let me give some advice. Go and splash your face with water, take a nap of at least 40 mins, then read my posts again... 3 times over. Oh... and don't forget to grow up.

Point 3
You Said:

Muhammad avoids addressing the point and instead says this:

Explanations mean nothing to those who have no brain to understand them.

He prefers to INSULT instead of addressing the points. - Priceless!

And for the ones who forgot.. refer to his point 4 in the previous posts. He is upset that I cannot accept his idiotic explanations/excuses/justifications for the crimes committed by Muslims for Islam.

The funniest thing is that he is truly expecting me to BELIEVE in the following:

These women are then captured in the war "Because" their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers have ALL died in the war and they are left ALL alone to look after themselves without any safety

LOL!! And he wonders WHY I cannot accept such statement. hahaha.. oh boy oh boy!!!

Read the following (To all people) - And please, feel free to comment on this in another thread.. I am here laughing actually! hehehe


My Response:

Hey... I didn't know that you are affected with pseudobulbar palsy disease. Go and get checked by a good doctor. I am saying that for your own good. So don't take it as an insult.
Yeah I really wonder why I can not accept such statement :s... probably because you are ignorant of what happens in wars. So go and learn about wars, take history classes from some good instituite rather then learning history from Answering Islam


Oh girly! It is not necessary that they all would die, that was a general statement to make your pea sized brain understand as to what happens in a war. As I said before, in those days every member of a house use to take part in wars. Some women use to take part in wars too.

Mohammad

Lets say there is family with 4 male members and 3 females. All the males took part in the war against Muslims. 2 of them got killed and the rest 2 were taken as captives of war. The 3 females are now left alone without anyone to take care of them. The place where they live is not secure anymore because of the war. So they were taken as captives. The caliph distributed them to the Muslim soldiers. Now they had a safe roof to shelter them and living and comfort was provided by their captors. On the other hand, many men, children and females are also taken as captives. Many of them are ransomed and many of them are free to go.

If the Caliph were to free them all, then the government is in trouble, how? That is how:

a) Islamic Government is to provide living for all its citizens who can not earn for themselves. If the captives are freed, the government could not support them because it is not rich enough to do so.

b) Many of them might group together and plan attacks on Muslims and put their life in trouble.

Point 4
You Said:

LOL!! Hear hear everyone!! We all know that ALL the women and children these monsters captured and RAPED were indeed hell bent on destruction of Islam!! LOL!
Well, I guess after this they indeed were!

Here we have a Muslim teenager, totally ignorant in Historical events, using his own bullshit in an attempt to convince an archaeologist/historian.. hehehee

(I am really trying to remain calm and not humiliate him)... such disregard for history... I feel like banging my head against the wall.

Muhammad, in other words.. please do not waste my time with BULLSHIT. Ok? Limit yourself to REPLYING my questions. When you try to talk, only crap comes out... and I am getting irritated.

Your Point 5 was a JOKE. Not worth of my replies.

Mohammad

My Response:

I Really Doubt If Anyone Can "Hear" You! The only funny thing till now is that you from the beginning till you could not provide a SINGLE proof that the females captives of war were "Raped".

You are an archaeologist/historian? That is the second biggest joke I have found in this whole thread. *Giggles*

You will get irritated when you will bang your head against the wall and make that pea sized walnut in your head weaker then ever before and when you will keep on failing to prove your points and dream about "Crushing Arguements" and "Winning the Debate"

Here we have a scared Jewish kid dreaming about crushing arguements, winning debates and hidding behind fake profiles Now wake up and stop dreaming kiddo


Point 5
You Said:

[Morrigan asks Muhammad] 1. Do you believe that a captured woman would want to have consensual sexual intercourse with her capturer? If YES, explain how and why.

[Muhammad's reply] - Why wouldn't she?! When she is been given a good life to live with her capturer, then why would she refuse?

===========

Conclusion of point 6:

Muhammad believes that a woman has NO RIGHT to refuse INTERCOURSE/SEX/RAPE with her captors.
Instead of answering YES or NO, he asks people WHY WOULD SHE REFUSE. Muhammad failed miserably to take HER FEELINGS into consideration, and instead prefrs to accept his own idiotic lack of logic.

Please all of you, write down the conclusions separatedly as we will discuss them later.. I will use them to fight against the cause of Islam. Pay attention!!!

Mohammad

My Response:

Whoaaaaaa!!! Showing your expertise in twisting others statements? Let me make it clear for you as to what I meant when I said that.

Every woman has her physical needs which she needs to be fulfilled and in order for them not to indulge in something like prostitution this was made legal and because of her physical needs she will want to have physical contact with man and at that time she can have it and it would be legitimate and she will not be labelled as a sinner in Islam.

Tiny girl robby has a brain tinier than a pea. She could not come up with a single argument to say why would a woman feel to refuse and then she rants like a little baby.

Point 6
You Said

As per ISLAM, it is OK to RAPE a woman by force, but it is NOT ok to ASK her consent and obtain it.

(One moment.. I am going to vomit....) ..........................
Ok... back!


My Response:

blah blah blah... Now I am really very very serious robby. Before you post the next response, go and get checked up by a good doctor. Seriously...I am concerned about your health. Vomiting so much is not normal for a woman unless she is pregnant.

Mohammad

Point 7

You Said:

[Muhammad] - Islam permits Muslims to have intercourse with captives of war without their Consent.
And this girly has miserably Failed to prove that till now.

Here we are... Muhammad CONFESSED/AGREED/ACCEPTED that Islam does indeed PERMIT Muslims to RAPE captives of war. And this "girly" has proven just that!!!


My Response:

Tiny girly please learn to comprehend english or if you want then I will ask someone to translate it for you in a language you understand.

Point 8
You Said:

This thing if practiced anywhere, has been practiced in minority.
Go and ask your "g-d's" Religion and your countries law makers as to
why don't they allow this to happen and why don't women generally practice or practiced it?

Who says they don't? What do you know of World history? LOL!!


My Response:

I said "Generally"... for God's sake work on your comprehension skills you lil arrogant girl


Point 9
You Said:

When I explained to Omer that a captive means to be HELD by force, he said:

Yeah, Held By Force but Treated Like Humans.

hahahahah!!! No comment to such idiocy.


My Response:

Idiocy lies in your pea sized walnut (Now I doubt if you even possess that!) When you utterly Fail to refute or respond to something, you run away by saying "No Comments" "Ignored"... You will keep running away like this till the end of this debate. Remember that!

Mohammad

Point 10
You Said:

Questions that Muhd. Omer did NOT answer yet:
1. Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?


My Response:

I can only laugh at you know... you lil Morran

Point 11
You Said:

(..Your Story of Americans Attacking Pakistan...)
1. Should your mother, sisters, gran and aunties be GRATEFUL to the merciful Americans since they are
well fed, clothed and have a bed to sleep on?

2. Have your mother, sisters, gran and aunties got any right to complain about being RAPED daily?


My Response:

Robby! Seriously... either you dont know english or you have no intelligence to comprehend the arguments or the brain to know what validates an argument. It is sad to see you in this mental state. I feel for you. Now see little child let me explain. For you to want me to answer those questions you have to prove that Islam permits raping. You have FAILED miserably in doing so....so here is the deal.
let me explain it to your pea-sized brain again.

PROVE that Islam permits raping. Now if you think you can then go ahead. If you cannot then just remain silent because you are making a fool of yourself.

Mohammad

Your Questions:

6.justify the Quran's stance on pre-marital sex and prostitution

My Response:

If pre-marital sex is legalized, then you can do it with anyone at anytime, just like animals. It leads to confusion of lineage, child abuse, the breaking up of families, bitterness in relationships, the spread of veneral diseases, and a general laxity in morals; moreover, it opens the door to a flood of lust and self gratification and the society becomed an animal society, not that of humans. That is why every religion commands its followers to abstain from pre-marital sex. So it is completely different from what we are discussing here.

Prostitution? Sex market... it is against the dignity of women and besides have got many other bad affects on the society. Again, completely different from the topic we are discussing.

Don't try to run away... stay focused!

7. define Morality as per ISLAM.

My Response:

I won't define Morality according to Islam till you answer my following Questions from which you have been running away like a scared cat:

what set of moral values do you follow?

Which set of moral values tell you that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral?

What makes you believe that having sexual relationship with female captives of war is immoral and having sexual relationship with ones wife is moral?

How do you define morality?


I want a sane and mature reply to these questions rather then HAHAHA LOL which comes out of you because of the disease with which you are affected with. Don't forget to get treated before giving me a response.

Mohammad

8. Where in the Quran does it say you must obtain her(The captive's) consent?

Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;- ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #36)

Allah (swt) has commanded to do Good to your Right Hand Possessions. Having intercourse with the Female Captive without her consent is RAPE which is Evil in the Sight of Islam.

9. show me a verse of the Quran where it CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

My Response:

He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #80)

Mohammad

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"


Refer to Point 11 here:

http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=2500808&tid=2545677157072639883&na=3&nst=21&nid=2500808-2545677157072639883-2545841501867634431

Tiny girly you really needs to work on you comprehension skills. *Sigh*

Mohammad

10. What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while she already has a husband?

My Response:

Woman has physical needs and to satisfy it if she does not have a male partner to satisfy she can become a prostitute. So to prevent this from happening she is given a legal person to satisfy her needs and take care of her. Men to become male prostitutes in an islamic society is less likely as no one will use their services. It is different from where you come from where women dont mind male prostitutes. so the chances of corruption in society are less likely and the male slaves are allowed to marry so they can marry and satisfy any needs.

Further it should also be noted that a female is highly likely to develop STD when she has multiple sexual partners e.g. Bacterial Vaginosis

Islam also gives importance to lineage. If a woman sleeps with both her husband and slave, how can you determine the lineage of the child?

So due to lineage, diseases and the biological danger to a a woman it is not safe for her to have many partners.

11.why can't a woman marry 4 men?Give me a LOGICAL/VALID/SCIENTIFIC reason for your g-d's disagreement with it. (Or Muhammad, who wrote the Quran himself).

Refer to answer to your question 10 (above).

12. Which noble muslim girl would love to have sex with a male who has killed her parents , husband and her brothers? (You can ask any Muslim female to reply to this)

Who told you that all the women captured in the war were noble? Have you any written statements from them that they were noble? If so kindly produce them.

Those who were noble wouldnt...and those who felt that their physical needs needed to be fulfilled did.

Muhammad Omer??? Where are youuuuuuhuuuuuuuu?
I want answers, jaan!!


Getting impatient like a baby girl again! Huh! As I told you, I have got a life outside orkut as well.

Addressing the POINTS
Question:

Is sex with slave-girls lawful as per Quran/Islam? YES OR NO?

[Muhammad] YES
=====================================
Good. First question was replied. So as everyone can see, from the mouths of Muslims... Quran does allow the immorality of having sex with slave girls (But not with FREE WOMEN).

This is easily explained by the Muslim's fear of rejection. They can have forced intercourse with a CAPTIVE because she is a captive and she cannot complain. According to Muhammad, she should also be GRATEFUL for this attack on HER BODY.

Conclusion No.1

The Quran encourages RAPE. But does NOT encourage LOVE or respect

======================================

I asked Muhammad AGAIN, for the 3rd time, this question:

1. Do you believe that a captured woman would want to have consensual sexual intercourse with her capturer? If YES, explain how and why.

First he replied with another question: Why wouldn't she?! When she is been given a good life to live with her capturer, then why would she refuse?

Which let's face it... it makes any DECENT MAN in this planet vomit with such disregard for HUMAN RIGHTS. (Islam is also against human rights, as you can see).

Then, he attempts to give another reply to that question.. here it is..

Every woman has her physical needs which she needs to be fulfilled and in order for them not to indulge in something like prostitution this was made legal and because of her physical needs she will want to have physical contact with man and at that time she can have it and it would be legitimate and she will not be labelled as a sinner in Islam.

Here you can see how Muhammad is truly an ignoramus. He FAILED to address the issue of THE WOMAN'S WISHES.

To Muhammad, it is ok to be RAPED by her captors, but not ok for her to have sex with SOMEONE SHE WANTS. (In Omer's crazy world, it has to be with HER CAPTORS, so she is not called a SINNER).


Morrigan

I don't have any desire to go around in circles here in this debate.
Muhammad has clearly lost the debate and also his sanity with it. Not to mention that he looks now totally ridiculous and is seen as an ignorant chauvinist pig.

CONCLUSION

Islam permits a MALE CAPTOR to force a woman onto sex, rape her and even provides no punishment for such thing, as Allah is merciful. However, if a woman wishes to have sex with someone she loves, or someone of her choice (Captive or not), Islam condemns them as SINNERS. Islam has absolutely no regards for Human rights or respect for FEMALES. Islam allows every dirty business for MEN's sake and DEMONIZES women to such an extent that they remove from them their self respect.

* going to vomit again*.......
==========================

PROVE that Islam permits raping.

Proved as above. Islam ALLOWS raping captives.

(A) Nowhere in the Quran it is mentioned that the captor MUST OBTAIN HER CONSENT FIRST.
(B) Nowhere in the Quran it is mentioned the possibility of the woman refusing (that is because they don't really give a shit about that. They rape her if she refuses).
(C) The Quran also mentions (as a bonus) that if a MAN forces the captive into PROSTITUTION ,Allah will forgive him.

That clearly shows the disturbingly SICK disregard for JUSTICE in Islam. Allah is sick himself.



ps. I won't return the insults that Muhammad Omer dished out to me, because I have no time for such idiocy, so most of his posts making idiotic comments and insults will be ignored.


Morrigan

I asked:

6.justify the Quran's stance on pre-marital sex and prostitution

Here is Muhammad's reply:

If pre-marital sex is legalized, then you can do it with anyone at anytime, just like animals. It leads to confusion of lineage, child abuse, the breaking up of families, bitterness in relationships, the spread of veneral diseases, and a general laxity in morals; moreover, it opens the door to a flood of lust and self gratification and the society becomed an animal society, not that of humans. That is why every religion commands its followers to abstain from pre-marital sex. So it is completely different from what we are discussing here.

Muhammad did not explain Islam's stance on it. He used Zakir Naik' s disturbing ignorance to support his point.

Note that: a CAPTIVE is not married to her captors, and yet, the immoral rape is allowed. Islam does not not even address the fact that the MAN could be carrying the disease and spreading it back and forth between wifes and captives.
The whole picture of it is one of overwhelming immorality.

Muhammad furthermore, tries to JUSTIFY his sick stance by giving NON-SCIENTIFIC opinions about what HE THINKS could happen, and fails MISERABLY to realize that other cultures have a very different view on this.

Muhammad, in his lack of intellect and low self esteem, believes that every person who has a girlfriend/boyfriend and has a LOVING SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP with them, is a dirty bastard..while insisting that RAPE is better than LOVE.

hahahahahha!! Jesus Christ!!! What a disease we have amongst us!!

Note also how he talks about lust and animal behaviour... perhaps because the men of his society are all animals.. otherwise why would he think this way?

continuing.....


Morrigan

I asked:

8. Where in the Quran does it say you must obtain her(The captive's) consent?

Muhammad's answer:

Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;- ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #36)


Nowhere in this text it is mentioned that you have to obtain the permission of the woman to have sex with her. If I missed anything, please point out to me WHERE IN THIS VERSE does it say that. (Stop wasting my time, BOY!)

Allah (swt) has commanded to do Good to your Right Hand Possessions. Having intercourse with the Female Captive without her consent is RAPE which is Evil in the Sight of Islam.

So show me WHERE does it say (In the Quran) that having intercourse with the female captive WITHOUT HER CONSENT is rape.

I am still waiting. You either find these very words written there or return to your insignificance. You lost the debate badly. Learn how to lose with dignity.


Morrigan

Wait..it gets better! LOL!!
I asked:

9. show me a verse of the Quran where it CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

Muhammad's reply:

He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #80)

As you can see, it says precisely the OPPOSITE. This verse states clearly (for all to see) that you are TOLD TO OBEY THE MESSENGER (Not Allah) BUT If anyone does not obey, and turns to EVIL DEEDS, they will be IGNORED (A blind eye shall be turned to them)..meaning...they can do all their evil deeds as much as they want, because Allah has not sent anyone to WATCH OTHER THEIR EVIL DEEDS.

Muhammad Omer has played right into my hands. He provided a verse which is the opposite of what he has claimed, and that has totally demoralized Islam as a religion. (I will save this verse and use it later)


Regarding Point 11

LOL! Muhammad wishes me to address the little funny story he wrote..heheheh

I would address ONLY IF IT WAS A HISTORICAL FACT, but it was not. This story cannot be proven, therefore cannot and will not be addressed. It's pure bullshit.

I refer to this:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

What a load of bullshit!!


Morrigan

Questions Muhammad did NOT yet reply (He keeps avoiding them.)


1. Should your mother, sisters, gran and aunties be GRATEFUL to the merciful Americans since they are well fed, clothed and have a bed to sleep on?

2. Have your mother, sisters, gran and aunties got any right to complain about being RAPED daily?


These are based on the story I wrote above. Read it again and REPLY. Your replies will attest to what you said previously.

7. define Morality as per ISLAM.

8. Where in the Quran does it say you must obtain her(The captive's) consent?

9. show me a verse of the Quran where it CLEARLY states RAPE IS PROHIBITTED.

10. What is wrong with a wife having sexual intercourse with any man while she already has a husband?

11.why can't a woman marry 4 men?Give me a LOGICAL/VALID/SCIENTIFIC reason for your g-d's disagreement with it. (Or Muhammad, who wrote the Quran himself).

12. Which noble muslim girl would love to have sex with a male who has killed her parents , husband and her brothers? (You can ask any Muslim female to reply to this)

13. Do you speak Arabic?


Answer my questions Omer, without BULLSHIT. I don't want your idiotic explanations/justifications, I want SIMPLE REPLIES.
If you have a brain, now it's the time to use it.

Sharjeel (شرجيل)

I have deleted one post of yours which was totally out of the Topic and please stick to the topic. This is about Slavegirls(as topic given by YOU) so stick to the topic, dont jump to other topics. Dont start preaching Torah and all that, just to write something in your posts. Please be with the topic, if you want to make a conclusion, just make it and people can read the posts and decide for themselves instead of going in circles.

Morrigan

You deleted my post? Who gave you permission for that? You are NOT participating in this discussion. You are being BIASED and pathetic in interfering. LEAVE US TWO ALONE!

How dare you delete something that important???

I will post it again and IF YOU DELETE IT, everyone will see how ignorant you also are!


Morrigan

IN THE TORAH - WHICH IS THE FIRST MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIOUS BOOK, FROM THE SET: TORAH/BIBLE/QURAN, the FIRST commandment that G-d gives to humans (ADAM and EVE) is:

BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLE

Now, I would like to debate on this because you muslims are saying that G-d is AGAINST pre-marital sex, however NOWHERE in the Torah you will see G-d telling Adam to marry Eve. Papers and registry offices did not exist in those days either.

Sharjeel here deleted the post because he is afraid of the truth. He reckons that everything before Quran is WRONG and only QURAN is right.. so I am going to show him how miserably wrong he is.. (Although I would prefer a ONE TO ONE debate)..only he cannot handle it.


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